Perhaps this will start some discussion... I have been researching ignition setup and found some very interesting posts on other sites. Thought some Elky owners like myself might find useful information here. I will post them as individual thread responses.

Enjoy!
Vrooom3440

Here's an interesting article on vacuum advance written by a GM engineer:

As many of you are aware, timing and vacuum advance is one of my favorite subjects, as I was involved in the development of some of those systems in my GM days and I understand it. Many people don't, as there has been very little written about it anywhere that makes sense, and as a result, a lot of folks are under the misunderstanding that vacuum advance somehow compromises performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I finally sat down the other day and wrote up a primer on the subject, with the objective of helping more folks to understand vacuum advance and how it works together with initial timing and centrifugal advance to optimize all-around operation and performance. I have this as a Word document if anyone wants it sent to them - I've cut-and-pasted it here; it's long, but hopefully it's also informative.

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.

Distributor Vacuum Advance Control units
Specs and facts for GM Distributors

by Lars Grimsrud
SVE Automotive Restoration
Musclecar, Collector & Exotic Auto Repair & Restoration
Broomfield, CO Rev. B 8-19-02


I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion and questions regarding distributor vacuum advance control units; what do they do, which ones are best, what was used on what, etc., etc. To clarify some of this, I thought I’d summarize a few facts and definitions, and provide a complete part number and specification listing for all vacuum advance control units used by Chevrolet on the points-style distributors. I’m also providing a listing of the specs for all other GM (non-Chevrolet) control units, but without the specific application listed for each (it would take me a bit too much time to research each part number by application across each of the GM Motor Divisions – it took me long enough to compile just the Chevy stuff…!). This latest revision to this paper also includes the HEI listings (the HEI distributors use a longer control unit, so the non-HEI and HEI vacuum advance control units CANNOT be interchanged).

As always, I’m going to include the disclaimer that many of these are my own comments and opinions based on my personal tuning experience. Others may have differing opinions & tuning techniques from those presented here. I have made every attempt to present factual, technically accurate data wherever possible. If you find factual errors in this information, please let me know so I can correct it.

Background
The vacuum advance control unit on the distributor is intended to advance the ignition timing above and beyond the limits of the mechanical advance (mechanical advance consists of the initial timing plus the centrifugal advance that the distributor adds as rpm comes up) under light to medium throttle settings. When the load on the engine is light or moderate, the timing can be advanced to improve fuel economy and throttle response. Once the engine load increases, this “over-advance” condition must be eliminated to produce peak power and to eliminate the possibility of detonation (“engine knock”). A control unit that responds to engine vacuum performs this job remarkably well.

Most GM V8 engines (not including “fast-burn” style heads), and specifically Chevys, will produce peak torque and power at wide open throttle with a total timing advance of 36 degrees (some will take 38). Also, a GM V8 engine, under light load and steady-state cruise, will accept a maximum timing advance of about 52 degrees. Some will take up to 54 degrees advance under these conditions. Once you advance the timing beyond this, the engine/car will start to “chug” or “jerk” at cruise due to the over-advanced timing condition. Anything less than 52 degrees produces less than optimum fuel economy at cruise speed.

The additional timing produced by the vacuum advance control unit must be tailored and matched to the engine and the distributor’s mechanical advance curve. The following considerations must be made when selecting a vacuum advance spec:

How much engine vacuum is produced at cruise? If max vacuum at cruise, on a car with a radical cam, is only 15 inches Hg, a vacuum advance control unit that needs 18 inches to peg out would be a poor selection.

How much centrifugal advance (“total timing”) is in effect at cruise rpm? If the distributor has very stiff centrifugal advance springs in it that allow maximum timing to only come in near red-line rpm, the vacuum advance control unit can be allowed to pull in more advance without the risk of exceeding the 52-degree maximum limit. If the engine has an advance curve that allows a full 36-degree mechanical advance at cruise rpm, the vacuum advance unit can only be allowed to pull in 16 more degrees of advance.

Are you using “ported” or “manifold” vacuum to the distributor? “Ported” vacuum allows little or no vacuum to the distributor at idle. “Manifold” vacuum allows actual manifold vacuum to the distributor at all times.

Does your engine require additional timing advance at idle in order to idle properly? Radical cams will often require over 16 degrees of timing advance at idle in order to produce acceptable idle characteristics. If all of this initial advance is created by advancing the mechanical timing, the total mechanical advance may exceed the 36-degree limit by a significant margin. An appropriately selected vacuum advance unit, plugged into manifold vacuum, can provide the needed extra timing at idle to allow a fair idle, while maintaining maximum mechanical timing at 36. A tuning note on this: If you choose to run straight manifold vacuum to your vacuum advance in order to gain the additional timing advance at idle, you must select a vacuum advance control unit that pulls in all of the advance at a vacuum level 2” below (numerically less than) the manifold vacuum present at idle. If the vacuum advance control unit is not fully pulled in at idle, it will be somewhere in its mid-range, and it will fluctuate and vary the timing while the engine is idling. This will cause erratic timing with associated unstable idle rpm. A second tuning note on this: Advancing the timing at idle can assist in lowering engine temperatures. If you have an overheating problem at idle, and you have verified proper operation of your cooling system components, you can try running manifold vacuum to an appropriately selected vacuum advance unit as noted above. This will lower engine temps, but it will also increase hydrocarbon emissions on emission-controlled vehicles.

Thus, we see that there are many variables in the selection of an appropriate control unit. Yet, we should keep in mind that the control unit is somewhat of a “finesse” or “final tuning” aid to obtain a final, refined state of tune; we use it to just “tweak” the car a little bit to provide that last little bit of optimization for drivability and economy. The vacuum advance unit is not used for primary tuning, nor does it have an effect on power or performance at wide open throttle.

With these general (and a little bit vague, I know…) concepts in mind, let’s review a few concepts and terms. Then it’s on to the master listing of specs and parts…..:

Part Number
There are many different sources for these control units. Borg Warner, Echlin, Wells, and others all sell them in their own boxes and with their own part numbers. Actually, there are very few manufacturers of the actual units: Dana Engine Controls in Connecticut manufactures the units for all three of the brands just mentioned, so it doesn’t make much difference who you buy from: They’re made by the same manufacturer. The part numbers I have listed here are the NAPA/Echlin part numbers, simply because they are available in any part of the country.

ID#
Every vacuum advance control unit built by Dana, and sold under virtually any brand name (including GM), has a stamped ID number right on top of the mounting plate extension. This ID, cross referenced below, will give you all specifications for the unit. So now, when you’re shopping in a junkyard, you’ll be able to quickly identify the “good” vs. the “bad” control units.

Starts @ “Hg
Vacuum is measured in “inches of Mercury.” Mercury has the chemical symbol “Hg.” Thus, manifold vacuum is measured and referred to as “Hg. The “Start” spec for the control unit is a range of the minimum vacuum required to get the control unit to just barely start moving. When selecting this specification, consideration should be made to the amount of vacuum that a given engine produces, and what the load is on the engine at this specification. For example, an engine with a very radical cam may be under very light load at 7 inches Hg, and can tolerate a little vacuum advance at this load level. Your mom’s Caprice, on the other hand, has such a mild cam that you don’t want the vacuum to start coming in until 9 – 10 inches Hg. For most street driven vehicle performance applications, starting the vacuum advance at about 8” Hg produces good results.

Max Advance
Since the vacuum advance control unit is a part of the distributor, the number of degrees of vacuum advance is specified in DISTRIBUTOR degrees – NOT crankshaft degrees. When talking about these control units, it is important that you know whether the person you’re talking to is referring to the distributor degrees, or if he’s talking crankshaft degrees. All of the listings shown in the following chart, and in any shop manual & technical spec sheet, will refer to distributor degrees of vacuum advance. You must DOUBLE this number to obtain crankshaft degrees (which is what you “see” with your timing light). Thus, a vacuum advance control unit with 8 degrees of maximum advance produces 16 degrees of ignition advance in relationship to the crankshaft. When selecting a unit for max advance spec, the total centrifugal timing at cruise must be considered. Thus, a car set up to produce 36 degrees of total mechanical advance at 2500 rpm needs a vacuum advance control unit producing 16 degrees of crankshaft advance. This would be an 8-degree vacuum advance control unit.

Max Advance @ “Hg
This is the range of manifold vacuum at which the maximum vacuum advance is pegged out. In selecting this specification, you must consider the vacuum produced at cruise speed and light throttle application. If your engine never produces 20” Hg, you better not select a control unit requiring 21” Hg to work.

Part 3 - Vac Can Part Numbers and Specs

The following listing (Non-HEI) is as follows: The first two part number listings are the two numbers that are most commonly used in a Chevrolet performance application. The “B1” can is the most versatile and user-friendly unit for a good performance street engine. As you can see, it was selected by GM for use in most high performance engines due to its ideal specs. The “B28” can was used on fuel injected engines and a few select engines that produced very poor vacuum at idle. The advance comes in very quick on this unit – too quick for many performance engines. Do not use this very quick unit unless you have a cam/engine combination that really needs an advance like this. It can be used as a tuning aid for problem engines that do not respond well to other timing combinations, and can be successfully used in applications where direct manifold vacuum is applied to the can (see paragraph and discussion on this above)

After this, the listing is by Echlin part number. The Chevrolet applications are listed first by application, followed by a complete listing of all of the units used on any GM product (all GM units are interchangeable, so you can use a Cadillac or GMC Truck unit on your Vette, if that’s what you want to do).

Non-HEI Distributors:

P/N ID# Application Starts @ “Hg Max Adv
(Distr. Degrees @ “Hg.)

VC680 B1 1959 – 63 All Chevrolet 8-11 8 @ 16-18
1964 Corvette exc. FI
1964 Impala, Chevy II
1965 396 High Perf.
1965-67 283, 409
1966-68 327 exc. Powerglide
1967-68 All 396
1969 Corvette 427 High Perf.
1969 396 Exc. High Perf.
1969 Corvette 350 TI
1969-70 302 Camaro
1970 400 4-bbl
1970 396 High Perf.
1970 Corvette 350 High Perf.
1973-74 454 Exc. HEI

VC1810 B28 1965 409 High Perf. 3-5 8 @ 5.75-8
1965 327 High Perf.
1966 327 High Perf.
1964-67 Corvette High Perf. FI

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VC1605 B9 1965 impala 396 Exc. High Perf. 7-9 10.3 @ 16-18
1965 327 All Exc. FI
1969 327 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala
1969-70 Corvette 350 Exc. High Perf.
1969-70 350 4-bbl Premium Fuel
1970 350 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala High Perf.
1971-72 350 2-bbl AT
1971-72 307 All

VC1675 B13 1968 327 Camaro Powerglide 9-11 8 @ 16-18
1968 327 Impala AT
1968 307 AT
1968 302, 307, 327, 350 Camaro, Chevy II
1970 350 Camaro, Chevelle Exc. High Perf.

VC1760 B19 1969 350 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala 4-bbl 5.5-8 12 @ 14-18
1969-70 350 2-bbl

VC1765 B20 1965 396 Impala High Perf 5-7 8 @ 11-13
1966-67 Corvette Exc. High Perf.
1966-67 Impala 427 Exc. High Perf.
1966-68 327 Powerglide Exc. High Perf.
1969 307 All
1969-70 396, 427 Camaro, Chevelle High Perf.
1970 400 2-bbl
1970 307 MT
1973 Camaro 350 High Perf.

VC1801 B21 1971 350 2-bbl 7-9 10 @ 16-18
1971-72 400, 402
1971-72 307 AT

VC1802 B22 1971-72 350 4-bbl 7-9 8 @ 14-16


Other Part Numbers & Specs:

VC700 B3 8-10 11.5 @ 19-21
VC1415 M1 6-8 10 @ 13-15
VC1420 M2 5-7 11 @ 16-17
VC1650 B12 8-10 10 @ 15-17
VC1725 B18 8-10 12 @ 13-16
VC1740 A5 6-8 12 @ 15-17.5
VC1755 A7 8-10 12.5 @ 18-20.5
VC1804 B24 6.5-8.5 10 @ 12-14
VC1805 M13 6-8 12 @ 14.5-15.5
VC1807 B25 5-7 8 @ 13-15
VC1808 B26 5-7 8 @ 11-13
VC1809 B27 5-7 9 @ 10-12
VC1812 B30 5-7 12 @ 11.75-14




The following listing (HEI) is as follows: The first four part number listings are the 4 numbers that are most commonly used in a Chevrolet performance application. The “AR12” can is the most versatile and user-friendly unit for a good performance street engine. The AR 15 and AR23 are almost identical, with only slight variations in their “start-stop” specs. The “AR31” can is the HEI equivalent to the “B28” Hi-Perf can used on the early engines: The advance comes in very quick on this unit – too quick for many performance engines. Do not use this very quick unit unless you have a cam/engine combination that really needs an advance like this. It can be used as a tuning aid for problem engines that do not respond well to other timing combinations, and can be successfully used in applications where direct manifold vacuum is applied to the can (see paragraph and discussion on this above)

After this, the listing is by Echlin part number. All GM HEI vacuum advance units are interchangeable, so you can use a Cadillac or GMC Truck unit on your Vette, if that’s what you want to do.

HEI Distributors:

P/N ID# Application Starts @ “Hg Max Adv
(Distr. Degrees @ “Hg.)

VC1838 AR12 1975 350 Buick 7-9 7 @ 10-12

VC1843 AR15 1977 305 All Exc. Hi Alt, Exc, Calif. 3-5 7.5 @ 9-11
1974 400 All w/2-bbl
1977 305 El Camino
1976 262 Monza Exc. Calif
1976 350 Vette Hi Perf, Incl. Calif
1975 350 Z-28
1977 305 Buick Skylark

VC1853 AR23 1976 350 All Calif. 5-7 7.5 @ 11-12.5
1976 350 Vette Calif., Exc. Hi Perf
1976 400 All, Exc. Calif
1975 350 4-bbl
1974 350 All w/1112528 Distr.
1978 350/400 Heavy Duty Truck, Exc. Calif, Exc. Hi Alt.

VC1862 AR31 2-4 8 @ 6-8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VC1703 N/A 1978-79 Vette Special Hi Perf N/A N/A
1979 305 El Camino Calif.
1978-79 350 Blazer & Suburban
1979 Buick 305/350

VC1825 AR1 1976 454 Caprice, Impala 3-5 9 @ 6-8
1975 454 Caprice, Chevelle, Monte, Suburban

VC1826 AR2 5-7 12 @ 10-13

VC1827 AR3 5-7 9 @ 9-11

VC1828 AR4 1975-76 350 Buick & Olds 6-9 10 @ 12-14
1976 350 Pontiac

VC1831 AR7 6-8 12 @ 14-16

VC1832 AR8 1975-76 455 Buick Electra 4-6 12 @ 12-14

VC1833 AS1 1975-76 500 Cadillac Exc. Calif. 4-6 14 @ 15-16

VC1834 AR9 4-6 13 @ 13-16

VC1835 AS2 1975-76 350 Olds 5.5-7.5 12 @ 15-17

VC1836 AR10 1977 305 All Hi Alt, Exc. Calif. 3-5 9 @ 11-13
1977 350 All exc. Calif.
1977 350 Vette Exc. Calif, Exc. Hi Perf
1976 305 All Exc. Calif
1976 350 All Exc. Vette, Exc. Calif
1976 350 Vette Exc. Calif., Exc. Hi Perf
1975 262, 350 All w/2-bbl carb
1975 350 All 4-bbl w/ 1112880 & 1112888 Distr.
1977 305 Chev Truck Light Duty
1975-76 350 El Camino 2-bbl

VC1837 AR11 1976 305 Blazer, Exc. Calif 6-8 12.5 @ 10.5-13.5
1976 350/400/455 Pontiac 4-bbl

VC1839 AR13 4-6 12 @ 11-13

VC1840 AR14 1975-76 350/400/455 Pontiac Firebird 6-8 10 @ 9-12

VC1841 AS3 1975-76 500 Cadillac Calif. 5-7 10 @ 13-14

VC1842 AS4 1976 350 Olds Cutlass 5-7 12 @ 13-15

VC1844 AR16 3-5 12 @ 13.5-15.5

VC1845 AS5 1978-79 425 Cadillac w/F.I. 4-6 14 @ 14-16
1977 425 Cadillac

VC1846 AR17 1977 301 Buick Skylark 3-6 13 @ 10-13
1977 301 Pontiac

VC1847 AS6 1978 403 Motor Home 4-6 12 @ 12-14
1977-79 350/403 Buick LeSabre Hi Alt, Riviera, Olds
1977-79 350/403 Pontiac Hi Alt

VC1848 AR18 4-6 12 @ 9-12

VC1849 AR19 4-6 12 @ 7-10

VC1850 AR20 1977 350/400 Pontiac 4-6 10 @ 8-11

VC1851 AR21 1977-79 350 Buick LeSabre, Century 5-7 12 @ 11-13
1978-79 350 Pontiac

VC1852 AR22 77-78 305/350/400 Chev Truck, Heavy Duty 7-9 5 @ 12-14
1975-76 350/400 Chev Truck Heavy Duty

VC1854 AR24 3-5 13 @ 10-13

VC1855 AS7 1977-79 260 Olds Cutlass 3-5 15 @ 10-12

VC1856 AR25 3-6 15 @ 10-14

VC1857 AR26 3-6 12 @ 13-16
VC1858 AR27 1978-79 305 All 3-6 9 @ 11-13
1978 350 Camaro
1978 305 Chev Truck, M/T, Light Duty
1978 350 Chev Truck Hi Alt
1978 305/350 Buick & Olds
1978-79 305 Pontiac

VC1859 AR28 1979 350 Vette Exc Hi Perf 3-6 10 @ 9-12
1978-79 305 w/1103282 Distr., Incl. El Camino A/T
1979 350 Camaro, Impala, Nova, Malibu, Monte
1979 350 Suburban
1979 350 Buick Century
1978 305/350 Buick & Olds
1978-79 305 Pontiac Hi Alt.

VC1860 AR29 3-6 12 @ 10-13

VC1861 AR30 1978-79 301Buick 3-5 13 @ 11-13
1979 301 Olds
1978-79 301 Pontiac

VC1863 AR32 2-4 10 @ 11-13

VC1864 AR33 1978 305 Chev Truck, A/T, Light Duty 4.5-6.5 13 @ 11-13

VC1865 AR34 1973-74 350 Vette Special Hi Perf 3-5 15 @ 8.5-11.5

VC1866 AS8 1978-79 425 Cadillac w/carb 3-5 14 @ 13-15

VC1867 AS9 2-4 10 @ 8-10

VC1868 AR35 1979 305 Chev Truck & El Camino 2-4 10 @ 6-9
1979 305 Buick & Olds
1979 305 Pontiac A/T

VC1869 AS10 2-4 12 @ 8-11

Hope those are helpful. One last point I want to add personally...

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the ported versus manifold vacuum connection for the vacuum ignition advance. I have read so many incorrect statements on this claiming something like "vacuum increases on ported" that are just plain false. Here is what really happens:

Manifold vacuum -- always present to the level developed by the engine trying to pull more air through the throttle blades than they will allow.

Ported vacuum -- identical to manifold vacuum *except at idle* where it is turned off.

It is just that simple but somehow gets misrepresented frequently. I will avoid the religious debate about which to use on your motor ;-)

Thanks for the articles, excellent information. I don't want to start an argument about manifold vs ported vacuum but one drawback to manifold vacuum is manifold vacuum can cause tip-in pinging (light throttle acceleration), but if you can avoid this problem I would prefer manifold vacuum advance over ported vacuum.

Read posts by "Ignition Man."

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40614

This guy knows his stuff.

I've bought from him before.

He makes fantastic small rotor HEI distributors.

I've always been taught that if you use ported vacuum, you're avoiding the other problems.

John 8)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/545033/JohnPoorman1.JPG

Yeah that port/manifold question does seem to draw sides... I had not wanted to start a war either, but here is my current understanding/thinking/philosophy on the topic: I think it is possible to make either combo work if you coordinate the setup of all the pieces of the ignition and fuel systems.

You can run manifold just fine so long as you meet a few criteria:

1. Vacuum can needs to fully engage at 1-2" of vacuum *below* your idle vacuum.
2. Initial + vacuum advance cannot exceed idle advance requirements.
3. Vacuum advance needs to be backing out at a level higher than any fuel enrichment circuits.

Note that #1 may mean that the vacuum advance curve is very short and #2 may mean a limited vacuum advance range.

Many Chevy distributors have 20* mechanical advance range and 20* vacuum advance range. If you use 36* total as an example, your initial has to be 16* due to the mechanical range. Now if you add 20* vacuum advance you could be idling way too advanced at 36*. Of course ported will let you idle at 16* with this setup, so it would be more optimum here.

So part of the trick is limiting the vacuum advance range with either an alternate vacuum pot or something like the Crane ignition advance tuning kit. Note that in this example 36* plus vacuum gives 56* which is probably too much for cruise as well. This example would probably be better with a 15* vacuum advance limit.

I have struggled with idle setup on my 402 BB due to the Crane HR296 cam and an idle vacuum of about 8". My setup has been a 14-16* initial with 34-36* total and a 20* 5-15" vacuum advance on ported vacuum. I have had dieseling issues on manifold vacuum, a slight cruise surge, and a bit of ping on light acceleration. Based on my recent learning, I am going to put in a different vacuum pot I have that turned out to be a 20* 3-9". I am going to see how well it will work as a movement limited 12* 6-9" vacuum advance on manifold vacuum. Maybe I can get rid of my backyard idle bypass and stinky exhaust. I'll post an update afterwards with my results.

One nice side affect of manifold vacuum setup as above is you can run more idle advance without starter kickback issues. And more idle advance can result in a cooler running engine.

Steve

Let us know how it works out. It has been many years since I tried using manifold vacuum on SBCs because I never could get rid of that tip-in pinging but with all of this new information that you gave us I might try fooling around with it again.

Well I put in the alternate vacuum advance can and now my setup is as follows:

mechanical advance 20* (crank) all in by 2000 (may need to tweak this still...)
vacuum advance 12* (crank) starting at 6" and all in by 9"

initial 16-18, total 36-38
idle 28-30, cruise 48-50

My pointer and timing marks make it tough to be exact on these numbers...

Motor runs great and does not seem to ping nor diesel. Vacuum at idle went from 8" to 10"+. I had a problem getting the engine to idle without opening up the throttle blades too far and exposing the ported vacuum port and too much of the transfer slots. To work around this I had added a metered adjustable vacuum leak idle bypass. I have been able to completely close this bypass with the new setup.

The one thing I wanted to do but have not is check and see what idle ignition timing the engine likes best based on vacuum. I was running out of time and had to just time it and run. But it would be interesting to have an optimum idle timing number to put into the puzzle.

Thank you for the interesting info. Man I just love it when someone posts some interesting material. As if I don't have enough to think about already. Seriously though, that was interesting information. Now i feel bad about buying my new adjustable vacume advance, when all I had to do was go to NAPA with $8-10 bucks.

Yeah I know what you mean... I had an adjustable vacuum advance can. But it measured out to +/- 2" full adjustment in to out. Pretty darn dissapointing.

I would expect the Crane kit to be better and from what I have found is not all that much more expensive. Besides it comes with the travel limiter which can be very useful itself.

Ummm... hope you did get the Crane kit? ;-)

Your idle vacuum is pretty low, do you have a long duration cam? 30 degrees at idle and no tip in pinging? Very interesting.....

It did/does work out to a lot more than I would have expected. As to my cam, that depends on what you call "long duration" 8)

Crane powermax HR296, 236/242 at .050. It's fairly aggressive for a street machine. It is a couple of notches further up the scale than I would have chosen, but it was part of an Ebay bundle with stuff I did want. What can I say, it has been very educational :)

My biggest problem at tip in is keeping the fuel flowing. The idle circuit in the Edelbrock Performer signs off when vacuum drops below a certain point somewhere around 4". Unfortunately from a standing start I can easily drop vacuum to next to nothing. Gets a bit backwards when you have to pull your foot *out* to go.

That 10" idle vacuum is at 850 RPM too... it falls off significantly as idle drops lower than that.

While I know my way around Holleys pretty well I am less than an expert on Edelbrock carbs. But a carb is a carb is a carb and I don't quite know what you mean when you say the idle circuit "signs off" below 4" ofmercury at idle?

Sorry for the short hand, I will try and explain more fully.

BTW don't sell yourself short, you are much more correct when you say that a carb is a carb. It really does not matter for the most part what name is on the outside because they all do the same thing and largely work on the same principles.

So we have three fuel circuits in the typical 4 barrel carb: idle, main, and secondary. All have jets to restrict and control how much fuel can pass into the circuit. All require some vacuum (albeit from different causes) to suck fuel up out of the float bowl and over into the throat. All have air bleeds to begin the atomization process and make the fuel delivery curve more linear with demand/vacuum changes.

And here is the gotcha: those air bleeds steal vacuum away from moving fuel. So it takes a bit more vacuum before fuel will get to the carb throat. The bigger the air bleed the more extra vacuum is required. Which means we can tune not only the delivery curve but the timing of the delivery by changing the size of the air bleeds.

Different carbs are optimized for different applications, and the Edelbrock Performer is probably targeted at a SBC with around a 270 cam, a combination that probably sees 15"+ of vacuum at idle. They can afford to, and do, bleed off more idle vacuum than my application with 10" of vacuum at idle. The SBC target probably only drops to 8" coming off a standing start where I drop to 3". So if the carb idle circuit bleeds off 4" of vacuum and manifold vacuum drops to 3" there will be no fuel flow from the idle circuit and a huge stumble.

I have been doing a deep dive on carb theory and preparing for some heavy duty tuning using a wide band O2 sensor. Which is what led me to validate my ignition tuning/setup first, where I stumbled upon these tech articles. Peel the onion and discover more onion.

Can you lengthen the pump stroke to inject more fuel when you accelerate? That might help during that initial vacuum drop period.

The most informative writeup I've ever read on the subject. Where was this 6 months ago when I was working with mine?

Now, armed with this new info, I'm going to recheck all my settings.

Thanks.

Just one question for vrooom3440,
now my setup is as follows:

mechanical advance 20* (crank) all in by 2000 (may need to tweak this still...)
vacuum advance 12* (crank) starting at 6" and all in by 9"

initial 16-18, total 36-38
idle 28-30, cruise 48-50


I refuse to accept the first mental image that comes to mind :?, so how do you check the timing at cruise?

The idle circuit is not designed to overcome the fuel flow delivery problem caused when the throttle opens and manifold vacuum drops; thats why you have an accelerator pump. If you have a stumble/hesitation you need a larger pump shot and/or different pump timing. With a Holley the pump shot/timing can be changed with a number of almost infinite combinations of pump sizes, number of pumps, accelerator pump cams, linkage location and pump nozzle sizes. I know that an Edelbrock doesn't offer anywhere near the adjustability of a Holley but the size of the pump shot is adjustable.

...Just one question for vrooom3440,
now my setup is as follows:

mechanical advance 20* (crank) all in by 2000 (may need to tweak this still...)
vacuum advance 12* (crank) starting at 6" and all in by 9"

initial 16-18, total 36-38
idle 28-30, cruise 48-50


I refuse to accept the first mental image that comes to mind :?, so how do you check the timing at cruise?
Fiber optics man! And a very fast eye :)

Cruise timing is (...drum roll here...)

Initial + vacuum advance + mechanical advance at cruise RPM

You can get a pretty good idea what the mechanical advance curve looks like just using a timing light and degreed balancer (timing tape). This is also what you will see in neutral at cruise RPM with the vacuum advance hooked back up :P

Regarding accelerator pump... I hear you Mrapi, the Holley does offer a lot more options on tuning this area of the carb than the Edelbrock/Carter. I have interpreted the function of the AP to help cover the hole from initial sudden start of the primary main circuit, not vacuum drop during the transition slot phase. I do have the AP shot total volume maxed out but have not changed jets yet. I started to go that way... but backed off because I am not sure there is sufficient throttle movement for the accelerator pump to come into play (and because the accessory jets I bought turned out to all be the same very small size). I may have to build a TPS and feed it into my logging system to validate my impression.

Doesn't it come down to: how far do you want to go? I mean at some point don't you have to determine the opportunity costs of smooth motoring on the street vs all out racing? Or is there some measure of tunability that gives the best in both worlds?

Actually I am not racing at all, not even close to having sufficient disposable $$$ for that game.

No I am just building a nice street machine and happened to wind up with more cam than I needed/wanted. The bundle included aluminum Edelbrock heads, roller lifters, roller cam, and custom length pushrods all for $2000. I wanted the heads and roller cam stuff, so I figured it was a pretty good deal. And once you have the parts you *have* to run them don't you?

Taken to limits though, yes racing parts do make tradeoffs against smooth street running. But in some cases these tradeoffs can be either exagerated or minimized by how you tune and setup the motor. Taking it the next step may get you the best of both worlds.

Ultimately I plan to convert to EFI and already have most of the parts to make the change. But one of my buddies is a Holley bigot and is just absolutely convinced that there is no way that Edelbroke carb is gonna work on that motor. Thusly challenged I am going to see just how close I can come 8)

Besides this is partially a toy and I am having some tinkering fun with it and learning a lot in the process. Much of what I am learning will be useful to me later as I tune the EFI.

Nothing like a good challenge to get the juices flowing. Yup, can sure understand tinkering with the toy. Funny you should mention the EFI. I was wondering how that apllication might make the previous carb discussion moot. What displacement are you working with? What kind of EFI are you going to run?

It is just a little big block chevy 402 :)

I have an Accel DFI 6.0 system for it. Not quite as whizzy as the current DFI 7.0 they sell but functional. The intake setup is rather unusual and consists of a tunnel ram with a large flat plenum box on top. Inside the plenum are runner extensions so it should be a low end torque monster. Should be interesting to see how that and the cam interact.

The hardest part is the fuel system...

Cruise timing is (...drum roll here...)

Initial + vacuum advance + mechanical advance at cruise RPM


I guess I'm still a little confused about the vacuum advance portion of the equation.

I would think this factor (number of degrees of vacuum advance) would be substantially different when the car is under a genuine load at speed (i.e. lower vacuum reading) as compared to turning highway equivalent RPMs in park (higher vacuum reading). If so, then the total should be quite a bit different as well.

What am I missing?
Thx

The vacuum advance responds to engine load, or put another way cylinder pressure. Lower pressure requires longer to burn, thus more ignition advance.

While cruise may have a different vacuum level than idle, it will be a relatively high vacuum level. Thus both idle and cruise should pull full advance on the vacuum can. When you put your foot down the vacuum drops as the engine load increases, and then the vacuum advance needs to release some or all advance from the vacuum can.

I think the only thing you may have missed is that the vacuum can should be fully advanced at 1-2" less than idle vacuum. Since this is likely less than cruise (either just at RPM or at road speed) that means you have full advance from the vacuum advance at cruise too.

After reading all this and the post by IgnitionMan at that other site, I'm going to hook my vacuum advance to the manifold post and she how the Elky behaves.

I have to open it up today to put in the new MSD HEI module and regap the plugs anyway.

Thanks vrooom3440

You're right. That was just what I was missing.

I hope to set mine as described over the holidays.


Merry Christmas.

Did the switch from ported vacuum to manifold vacuum but didn't take it out. I was so frustrated with the MSD 83645 HEI module that I just quit.

Couldn't really tell much difference except for having to reset the idle air screw to lower the RPMs. It seemed to rev about the same. I'll take it for a spin tomorrow.

Did the switch from ported vacuum to manifold vacuum but didn't take it out. ...
Couldn't really tell much difference except for having to reset the idle air screw to lower the RPMs. It seemed to rev about the same. I'll take it for a spin tomorrow.
That is exactly what it should do. You will note that your vacuum at idle is now higher than before.

Ported gave you vacuum advance as soon as you moved the gas pedal anyways, so you should not be able to tell the difference except at idle.