This is my first post and i would just like to say my Name is Justin Duffey friends call me Duff, I'm 15, live in Kansas and LOVE cars. I have a lot of experience with Body work. I just got done restoring a 1952 Coke Machine, was worth 700 bucks when i started, now is worth 16,000. So i guess I know what i'm doing.
Anyways, My friend recently Bought a 1980 El Camino, its got a V6, 282 Cubic inch i believe. Anyways my friend knows NOTHING about cars, so i'm doing all the body work. Why my other friend Bone is doing the Engine work. And i've got a few questions: see there are two pretty good sized dents on the quarter pannel right were you would think brake lights would be. You know that area where its nice and rounded. What i'm wondering is how am i going to remove thoughs dents. Cause i dont' beleive you can take the quarter pannel off, but i wouldn't know. Laugh if you want at my knowledge of the quarter pannel, but hey i'm still learning.

-Duff

Welcome,

I had the same thing with my son's '85. We found rubber plugs (square if I remember) on both sides of the tailgate opening. After removing those I could get various screwdiver handles and other tools into the area to gradually work most of the dent out.

Hey Duff,

I grew up in my dad's body shop. The tool you need if there is no other way to get behind the quarter is a slide hammer (also known as a dent-puller). you drill holes into the metal and remove the dent by twisting the tool into the hole (it has a screw end) and whacking it back with the weighted part of the tool. It is a very low-tech tool and is available at most auto parts stores (cheap). Try to drill the least amount of holes possible and use the tool and a hammer to get the body back to roughly straight.

After grinding off the paint to prepare for body filler, some people weld or solder the holes shut to prevent moisture from getting through the other side. If it does not seem like an area that will get wet from tire-splash, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

There is a higher tech version of this tool in which you spopt-weld on small steel studs to the metal and use a modified version of the dent puller which grabs the studs and has the same slide-hammer effect. The benefit of this tool is that it makes no holes in the body. When the dent is pulled to satisfaction, you simply grind off the studs you welded on. The downside is the tool is very expensive. I would opt for the low-tech, low-dollar version . . . . . .

Good luck . . . . .

Hey Duff, I'd go with the new "Stud Welder" (what the other reply was talking about), they start out at $199.99 for the Economy System up to $329.99 for the SUPER UNIT! These are AMAZING...you can pull out a dent the size of a dime to a panel that look's like it's been chewed up & spit out! The best thing about them is you don't have to worry about getting to the back side!!! I'm lucky, I have a friend that own's a Custom Body Shop & they have everything you can think of! Using one of those Drill type dent puller's (I have one & will never use it again) weaking's the body structure not to mention having a bazilloin hole's in your car, then having to add a pound of bondo just to make it look right & after time, water may work it's way between the body & bondo thru the hole's & your bondo will eventually fall off! It has happen to some of the car's I had bought...with the "STUD WELDER" you will use very little bondo, sometime's none at all & get the job done in no time at all! You can get everything you need at "EASTWOOD" www.eastwoodcompany.com or 1-800-345-1178 If you like doing body work & want a good reputation, go with the best tool's! They make the job Faster & Easyer!!! :P Eastwood will send you a FREE Catalog...you might even find a "STUD WELDER" on eBay cheep! Hope this help's you out..."SKULL"

After grinding off the paint to prepare for body filler, some people weld or solder the holes shut to prevent moisture from getting through the other side. If it does not seem like an area that will get wet from tire-splash, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Spot weld up any holes no matter where they are if your going to use body filler. Body filler is porous and should only be used over a good sealing primer. If you don't then moisture will get in and it will let go. Not if! Bondo on a non painted surface (Primed and sealed) can absorb moisture from the atmosphere and once painted it will hold that moisture eventually causing the un-primed metal under it to rust.

Never again will I use the drill da holes type dent puller...I used it once to pull the dent out of a quarterpanel, and by the time I was finished the car looked like it was present at the Saint Valentines Day Massacre!

OK - now I'm confused.

Unless there has been a new primer-sealer that has come out in the past five years that I don't know about (that is a pre-step to Bondo) - you NEVER put bondo over primer. It was originally made and still is made to bond to METAL. When you see chunks of bondo falling off a vehicle or cracking like alligator skin it is usually because the person who did the work slathered it right over the paint. The entire area which is to receive bondo is to be ground down to bare metal.

Yes, bondo is porous - that is why the primer and paint are applied OVER it, not under it - to seal it in. There are also exceptional glazing putties that are non-porous, such as Evercoat Polyester Glazing Putty that help to seal in the bodywork before you prime and paint.

I have grown up working in and have worked in several very reputable body shops in New Jersey and Arizona (arguably the best and worst areas for rust in cars). The techniques are exactly the same in the preparation of bondo leading up to paint. I still see cars and trucks I worked on ten and fifteen years ago and the bodywork is still perfect. If prepared properly, good bodywork can last for decades.

As for the Eastwood "Stud" tool and accompanying slide hammer - I wholeheartedly agree that it is the better tool to work with (I own both). It is not, however impervious to making holes in the body as overzealous pulling with the slide hammer tends to rip the stud off (and sometimes the surrounding metal). However, hearing that Duff is 16 and just starting, he may not have $300 to throw at a higher-tech tool of this nature. The traditional (drill holes) dent puller has been used (and also abused) for the past 50 years. Again, if prepared properly this can also last for decades (like welding the holes shut or sealing from behind if you can get to the area).

Dan

Don't get confused Dan, the right way to do bondo IS BARE METAL! I also have worked at several body shop's & have hung around most of my life tinkering in body work & the shop I hang out with now is one of the best I've seen as far as doing the job right! They don't do "PATCH WORK" only Restoration Off Frame Job's & they don't bother sanding the body down to prep, they strip & sandblast EVERYTHING!!! Yes, they are pricy...but "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"...their body job's start at about $5,000.00 on up! Once they are done, you never have to worry about having paint peal or fading for a Looooooooooooooooooooooong time! :P When they are done, your car look's BETTER than Factory! "SKULL"

Hey, thanks guys. Yea I was getting ready to reply askin for a better way to remove thoughs dents. I managed to take out about 2/3 of one of the dents. That was after listening to 4 Metallica albums (just my lil way of tellin time while workin) and i was gettin pretty pissed. I figure that i'm going to be doing this for a living, i'd better get the tools to do the job right. Cause if i'm gunna say i did a job by god it'll be done right. I just got a few questions:

1. You said with the slide puller that i'd be puttin holes in the body?
And if so, not like thats a big deal, cause all i have to do is weld a small rivet inverted in the hole, then grind the rest off, then fill the hole with this apoxy **** "aquired" from Boeing. Says it turns as hard as steel. Then grind it down, bondo any inprefections, sand smooth, and primer. This process might take longer, but at least you know its done right, right?

2.Thoughs one deals with the lil suction cups, thoughs might work for newer cars with the dent resistant ****, but when you're workin with steel, will thoughs work like on a 1980 El Camino?

3. And this might not have to do with Body work though, but i was changin Plugs and wires, and the wires on the right side go under the cross member under the engine. And the plug wire box that i got doesn't come with wires long enough, and i told the guy it was for a 1980 El Camino. Anyways would it matter if i just kinda put em by the exhaust manifold? not touching or anything, but around that route?

-Duff

Duff, when you use the Slide Hammer the OLD WAY, you WILL have to drill hole's & then put screw's in the hole's, attach the Slide Hammer to the screw, then pull the dent out wile sliding the hammer out toward's you...(I think you know what I'm talking about)...with the "STUD WELDER) there is NO DRILLING, the "STUD WELDER" weld's a stud to the body then you attach the slide hammer to it & pound out the dent as you would with the OLD Slide Hammer with Screw's! Then you grind off the stud & add bondo as needed! That's answer for # 1. As for #2, thoes are worthless unless you have a brand new car...as for #3, YES you can run the spark plug wire's next to the exhaust manifold's, just don't let them touch the manifold, the farther away the better! I don't know about the 1980 model's, buit I alway's try to keep my wire's as short as I can...that's just me. "SKULL" :cool:

...thanks, i'm thinkin that stud welder is sounded better than the slide hammer. we'll see, trial and error.

-Duff

Hey Duff,

Skull is right - the Stud Welder is a better tool. I haven't seen the old-fashioned slide hammer he is referring to, but mine (I have the old as well as the stud welder) has the screw attached to the shaft of the slide hammer. They both have plusses and minuses, but in the end, the stud welder will win.

As for the suction cups you mentioned - you will find that they only really work on the more flat areas like a dent in the middle of a door or on the smooth part of a quarter panel - and only for uncomplicated dents (no sharp creases and no compression / accordian type dents).

Body work is fun and frustrating. I did it professionally for about 15 years and I kept learning new things all the time (I still do). Keep an open mind and listen to everyone's opinion, but find your own groove. Also - learning the "tricks of the trade" are good, but make sure you learn the trade as well as the tricks . . . . . .

Two paths that lead to the same destination are merely different paths. Niether is right or wrong if the end result is the same . . . . .

Dan

I'd just like to toss this this thought in here with respect to the old style dent puller where you drill a hole. If you do your first coat of filler with DuraGlass, which is waterproof, the lifting problems don't occur from the holes you drilled. Of course, if you pull too hard or use too few holles to pull on, you create "lumps" to deal with. That's what a grinder is for.

So we disagree on when / how to use Bondo.

That is not a big surprise. I don't work for a body shop or do assembly line repair jobs but it is an industry standard, accepted practice, and I know that too. Insurance companies will not allow time for repairs to be done correctly and you'll probably never see that vehicle again so what does it matter, as long as the surface on the outside looks good and the customer is happy at the time.

If Bondo falls off a car I would agree that it was because of poor prep. I've never seen any bodywork from an assembly line repair shop that was worth much and I certainly wouldn't want to have that person do it to any classic car I own or anything that I had to pay for.

So we disagree. Not a big deal or a shock.

ElkyPete:

I said it recently to Duff and I will say it again:

"Two paths that lead to the same destination are merely different paths. Niether is right or wrong if the end result is the same . . . . . "

I have never worked in one of the "Production line" shops you refer to. In my mind, there is only one way to do body and paint work - the right way. It entails working out and dents to as close to "normal" before applying Bondo so it is as thin as possible. All edges are to be feathered properly during all phases of sanding, Bondo, glaze coat, primer and finally sealer / paint. There are NO skimping of steps as you will pay in the end when sanding marks show through the paint or waves are visible in the bodywork. There is almost no such thing as too much blocking . . . .

I have done restoration work on several classic Corvettes, done dozens of full custom paint and "frame-off" restoration projects. When I speak of bodywork, it is coming from someone who has "walked the walk", not a "poser".

We can all learn from each other here. If there is a website or book on bodywork that tells of priming the affected area before Bondo, please let me (and us all) know about it as it will only further the craft that we all enjoy so much.

If we can all play nice in the sandbox here and respect each other's ideas, differences and opinions, then this is truly a forum . . . . . . .

Dan

It was always my understanding that the metal should be worked as close to the original shape as possible before adding filler. The best results are from soldering or fiberglass impregnated resin filler(kitty hair,Duraglas...). which is waterproof. I've been using an epoxy primer\sealer and the instructions say to prime over bare metal and then use filler. After the primer\sealer you use a high build primer. Then block sand your arms off grasshopper.

60ElCam

My idea of assembly line repair is most body shops (Maaco, GM Dealers, Earl Shieb, Miracle) etc... They rush out jobs even when it doesn't serve them to and doesn't serve the customer, unknowing of the methods and cut corners to appease the insurance industry, cost wise.

You can put Bondo on bare metal. Yep, it will stay for a while and given the right set of circumstances it will possibly last for some years. Dupont doesn't recommend that you do that but you can do it. Back to "Bondo is a porous filler compound", we both agree and in some, hopefully most, shops the time from setting the bondo to applying the sealer is all in a controlled booth so that a minimal amount of moisture is in the atmosphere and absorbed into the filler.

If these conditions are not just so, then you create a problem that can take several years to show. The moisture in the filler will find the metal and it will eventually oxidize and rust. Rust has no holding properties so it will let go and bondo / body filler will come off and you can end up with some extensive rust damage.

Metal should be clean as possible, my way of thinking, sanded properly, conditioned and primed/sealed then add filler where necessary in very small amounts. If you have excessive moisture then the only repair you going to have to go back and re-do is the filler and paint. Bare metal is also more difficult to see dents in. Large dents are always obvious but smaller ones will take a coat of primer to see and in some cases, taking lighting into consideration, will not be totally obvious until the paint starts going on.

I'll admit I don't have 30 years experience, I am probably not the absolute best body and fender man, and I am still learning new stuff. I've refinished several El Caminos, not just my own, some other trucks and cars. I have been taught to do what I do the way I do it from a person who owns his own shop and has for 30 or so years and I have been working with and for him since about '99. I have ground enough Bondo off of old vehicles to see just what happens to them over the years and the different types if repairs people perform on them over the years. Some of it was pretty good. More often than not it is poor work that creates other problems and sends costs up. What I really hate seeing is a body with about a thousand holes in it and cancer eating away the metal that was once in pretty good shape.

So my advice will always be fill all holes and if you can avoid putting them in the body to start with then do that always. Best way to fill the holes is to weld them shut and grind them down. Pay attention to the amount of heat used because stressed metal had a tendency to buckle and warp under too much heat. Clean and condition metal for sealing, seal it with a good primer and then start any body work with the sandable primer over it. Once finished then re-seal and paint. Its an extra step for some folks but it has its rewards.

Torches will burn off any protective coating on the metal. So if you have to torch / weld a body panel it is a good idea to protect the back surface if you can get to it to keep it from rusting or seal up the area as good as possible to keep out as much moisture as possible.

Two things I have come to realize that lots of people don't know or think about. 1.) Primer, sandable, is not a sealer and it will allow rust to start even if the whole body is covered. So driving around with a primered vehicle is not ever recommended.

2.) Bondo is a porous compound and will retain moisture in it. Once sealed in with paint, if the moisture is enough, it will crack or just let go in a small amount of time.

I'm not trying to be contrary or argumentative. I do have strong feelings about who is doing repairs on my vehicle's bodies and how that is accomplished. Sorry if I left you with the idea that "I think" your wrong, just different. If you're satisfied with the work you do and I am sure it is probably really good, then great. I disagree with that one step that’s all, well, unless you of a train of thought about leaving holes in the body is alright.

But as you said we're all hear to learn, and share, I learn stuff all the time. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box most of the time but I try to hang out with people that can teach me the things I need to know to do what I feel like I have to. After all, my chosen occupation is Computer Science not Automotive repair. I've worked on cars off and on since I was 15 or so but mostly just so that I can drive and not have to pay big expensive shop bills. Now however, I do it because I am at a place where I have the time and money to do neat things to the vehicles I like. Which just happen to be El Caminos.

Last though is that most of us don't have shops to do our work in. We do it in the yard or garage of our homes and everything can go wrong. Murphy's law.....

ElkyPete,

Good words and observations. I too have ground off many a bad previous repair patch area while doing body and paint work. I would like to add a few thoughts and observations. Since the e-mails have started about the bondo debate, I have asked around for opinions of professionals. Some have heard of and practiced the prime before Bondo method of body work, most I spoke to have not. Again, this is about learning all you can and then finding the groove that works best for you.

You make a very good point about primer - like Bondo, it is also porous. I have seen many a car that are primed for a year and all the bodywork has to be redone because the owner thought the primer would seal in the work.

Rust under the Bondo - I will agree that some oxidation may occur between grinding the metal clean and Bondo, but as you observed, if in a controlled environment (like a heated garage or shop) the amount will be so minimal that it will make no difference in the final product. As I have been taught (and needless to say I am also still learning) if you grind the metal, feather edge the painted area, and apply the Bondo - you are talking about application normally inside a half hour in a controlled environment. The chances of oxidation are slim to none (Bondo also heats up significantly in the process which would tend to evaporate moisture). In the defense of the primer first rule, however, some people grind the area and do not apply the Bondo for days or even weeks while driving their car. This will undoubtedly cause excessive oxidation to occur. The same applies to doing bodywork and leaving the bondo (which covers the metal beneath) exposed to the elements. This is also bad as it will absorb the rain and humidity out of the air, making rust between the Bondo and metal.

A point I would also like to bring up is that the shrink characteristics of Bondo very different than primer. I have seen too many paint jobs where the bodywork shows through the paint due to shrinking. Bondo completely cures within hours while paint takes up tp a month. Applying primer before Bondo adds a slower curing layer between the metal and the Bondo. This will especially show at the edge of the bodywork as things "shrink". This is why feathering is so important in every stage of the process.

Also keep in mind that while doing bodywork, a Surform (AKA "Cheese Grater") will gauge into metal and especially the painted areas around the dent. These scratches need to be completely sanded out of the painted (and pre-Bondo primed areas) to avoid seeing them through the paint. I have found that sanding between each Bondo coat (including Surform or "File coats"), and feathering out the heavy scratches and gauges that this tool makes will help greatly. Good body work looks like garbage after the paint cures (shrinkage) and those sanding scratches show through . . .

This brings up a whole other debate - which is to wet sand or dry sand your "block" coats of primer / glaze. Like the Bondo debate, I have had this one for years with other bodymen. The Dupont Rep told me to dry sand as miosture could get trapped under your primer / sealer coat. I will almost always dry sand bodywork as I believe, like ElkyPete here that the moisture from wetsanding will be held under the sealer coats of primer and be trapped in the bondo to bubble out at later date (if one wetsands the bodywork). Other bodymen tell me I'm crazy . . . . . .

I guess the short of it is - pull the dent to as close to factory as possible, seal holes if you make them, grind, feather sand, apply Bondo (or prime first) sand, glaze coat, sand and SEAL IN the afffected area with a good primer sealer. If possible, do the work in a humidity and heat controlled building and leave no steps on hold (AKA - do it in "one sitting") as mother nature will get in there - and I've seen - she can be a real bitch.

There are a million reasons why bad paint jobs happen. Previous bad work, too many paint layers balow, cold and humidity, poor prep work, poor finish work, etc. Of course, the best paint and body jobs happen where the car is media-blasted, all dented panels are replaced with parfect ones and it costs 8K to have your car painted. Reality for most, however, is the hope where one can hire a shop that they feel comfortable will do a good job for the meager dollars we work so hard to save.

These debates will go on in every forum - shops, garages, and right here. It is up to us all to put our best info out there and hope they will help each other make informed decisions . . . . .

Yeah, went over to Harbor Freight the other day, finaly got me a Slide Hammer. Not the best i'm told, but hell it worked. So i'm not complainin, thanks guys

-Duff