hey guys, i am new to this website. i just bought a 1987 elcamino today... i am new to hot rodding but am not new to cars. i have owned many lowriders, i just sold a 1971 lincoln continental of mine but until now i havnt been too much into preformance.

it has the stock 305, i was thinking about throwing a 350 in it... but with a 1700 dollar budget on the engine. i think it would be smarter to stick with the 305 .

my question is... what should i do to get the MOST bang for my buck? i had in mind, mild cam, intake manifold, new carb (but i am not sure how many cfm's i would need), racing headers, flowamaster exhaust, 4:10 gears in the rear, and POSSIBLY a new ignition system.

any advise or pointers? i am not as experienced in preformance as i am in other car areas... i will be buying all of the parts tomorrow from summit racing so any advice would be greatly appreicated... my 2 main questions besides what parts would be the most beneficial would be... do these elcaminos have posi's? and how many cfm's on a carb should i get.

i would really appreicate any information. 8)

btw... this is a pic of my baby
http://i27.tinypic.com/2czva07.jpg

Not much you can do with a 305, they are boat anchors, especially with only $1,700. Biggest power adders are heads and cam. Cant put good heads on a 305 due to very small bore and lack of cubic inches for low end power. You can put a big cam in it but would be worthless in low end due to low velocity and on top end due to restricted flow from small valves, small ports, and bore shrouding of valves. To get some extra power, get a good carb, tune up parts, maybe headers, play with timing, etc, small stuff but thats all you have with a 305. By the way, nice looking Camino.
If you are in California, you are pretty much stuck with a 305 and theres not much you can do legally as far as smog laws.

smog isnt an issue because im in nevada, and i dont even have to worry about a smog test.... woud it be unreasable to expect like 320 hp from my 305 after i dump 1700 in in it? and give it some lovin...

thanks for the good info and the props for my ride tho :-)

for $1700 you can build a nice 350. get the engine from craigslist, depending on condition you can either get machine work done for around $200 then install new pistons, rings etc. you can find a deal on aluminum heads on ebay. I got procomps for $444 shipped (some don't like them).

get a master rebuild kit for around $300 on ebay. (optional HP cams are available) I got Hypereutectic pistons, high volume oil pump, and 350 HP cam added for a little change. (cam was free, there was a mix up.)


so let's say:
$400 for an old long block
$350 for kit
$200 for machining
$200 for head work and valves (stock heads)
____________
$1150 so far

now if you keep the intake and dist. from the 305, you're done. As well as valve covers, timing cover, maybe oil pan, etc. common sense parts.

you still have $650 to spend on performance intake, ARP bolts, dress up, Distributor, gear redux starter, spark plugs, filters, oil... your choice

If you plan to get aluminum heads already assembled then you have that $200 back because you don't need machine work.

also consider you can sell the old 305 as well as other leftover parts.







did I miss anything? just start searching ebay for parts, you'll be surprised at the deals.

Don't speed $1700 on a 305. Like Nate says, you can do a 350. You will never get 320 HP out of a 305 with $1700.

Doug

anyone on this site will say 350 all the way!! nobody likes 305s here we like power hohohoho!!!

okay okay i hear you... what parts can i buy for this 305 that i can swap over to a 350? headers right? because id like to buy as much as possible and eventually switch it all over... thanks...

oh and do those elcos have posi's? it also has a brand new 200r4 tranny... whats the most hp i can throw at it?

okay okay i hear you... what parts can i buy for this 305 that i can swap over to a 350? headers right? because id like to buy as much as possible and eventually switch it all over... thanks...

everything.

I don't recommend heads on a 305, because anything with small enough valves to fit a 305 will suck on a 350.

same with cam. different lobe separations are needed to perform properly on the much smaller 305.

305's apparently don't like headers. I've read they don't have enough back pressure. IDK for sure on that one.

dual exhaust, intake, carb, ignition will make the biggest difference.

oh and do those elcos have posi's? it also has a brand new 200r4 tranny... whats the most hp i can throw at it?

200r4's have many variations.

not all elky's have posi. you can get one from an MCSS. s10 with 7.5 rearend may work.

350 HP. Link,

http://www.phoenixtrans.com/html/gmtrans.html

Doug

what type of carb should i put on it? it would probably have to be a different one that i would put on a 350 later on huh? thanks..

Your carb will work with or without a jet change if you keep the computer. Also keep the HEI distributor if you keep the computer. Both are good units.

your stock 200-4R trans is probably good for 250 HP without mods.

Doug

I have a 600cfm holley with a edelbrock eps proformer intake, and it did A LOT for me. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference but now she burns the tires threw first gear and grabs rubber in second. With a low budget build like this i would do what i did for now until you can throw more money at the engine.

One factor to keep in mind is your carb and dist. are now computer controled and so is the torque converter lockup in the trans. You can't just go halfway with computer or non-computer controlled components.

doug

well knowing now that my tranny cant handle the horsepower that would be put out by a sooped up 350... i might as well just keep that 305 in it...
i should be able to get atleast 250 hp out of it if i put all of those parts in it right? i really dont want to buy another engine and another transmission right now... down the road id probably end up dropping a 350 or even a 383 in it, but im still considering just beefing this 305 up a little bit. its not like it can hurt only part i couldnt use would be the cam, ill buy a nice intake manifold for it and some exhaust and for the time being i will be happy.

im also putting a nice sound system in my elco, im going to have it candy painted, and am redoing the seat's upholstry. im allowing a $5000 budget so id rather not dump all of the money in 1 area

i see 5.0 mustangs that get big hp out of an engine the same size as mine, so im confused why it would be such a bad idea.

i see 5.0 mustangs that get big hp out of an engine the same size as mine, so im confused why it would be such a bad idea.

big difference. we just had a thread on this.

the ford 302 is a roller-cammed, advanced fuel injection beast with a good bore/stroke ratio capable of spinning up and allowing clearance for a huge cam.

the 305 is well... a small bore mistake of a compromise for v8 power and emissions requirements.

small bore (3.74")= extremely low compression because of lack of surface area. It will never make as much compression as a 350 with the same combustion chamber size because the 350 has a 4" bore. therefore more surface area of the piston= higher compression= more power from same fuel amount.

that small bore also means that you are limited on the type of heads you can run, because if the valves are too big, or lift is too high (cam) they will cause severe shrouding and even worse performance. this is considering they dont actually hit the cylinder wall when they open.

302 vs. 305 thread (http://elcaminocentral.com/ftopict-24788-302.html)

there's the link.

bore/stroke:

302- 4.00 x 3.00 = high revver with plenty of valve clearance and compression

305- 3.74 x 3.484 = low revver, low compression, limited head options. (it does cool well though allowing less NOx emissions, making the feds happy)

For a carb I would recomend an Edelbrock 650 Cfm Carb. with matching manifold thats about $400 you can find decent headers (for decent prices) at swap meets (I'm sure there are plenty in Nevada). I pulled the computer in my '85 right before it died of other problems and it ran fin you just have to make sure that you remove ALL of the computer components. Your new 305 will be a great motor that despite, numbers will perform better and be more reliable than a 350. All of my 305s have run better at 25-30 years old than a brand new "racing" 350 setup and you can drive them to hell and back at a great 15-20 miles per gallon as opposed to 10-15 miles per gallon with a 350

Dont scrap the tranny. The 2004Rs' can be built to handle a lot of power. Plus you keep the O.D. for nice highway cruising. As far as the 305 goes. All external diminsions are the same as the 350. That means all "bolt on" parts will fit both engines. Intake, exhaust and ignition will all interchange. So, any mods you make in these areas will be able to be swapped over to the 350 when the time comes. If the 305 runs OK now, just throw a good tune up on it and enjoy. Read all you can on this web site and get all the info you need to keep that Elky in fine running order.

well i just said "**** it" today as i went to the reno summit racing store today. i spent $960 in all. im going to do this 305 up and if i am not satisfied then i will start looking for a 350 and eventuallty swap it all over... this is what im putting on it...


crane racing cam
comp. lifters
pro cam valve springs/ locks
dynomax headers
h.e.i. distributor
edelbrock preformer 500cfm carb.
high-rise aluminum intake manifold
chrome air cleaner
flowmaster exhaust
and a new timing set and all new gaskets

i was told at summit that i will be looking at close to 300hp so well see... its not like i really lost any money cause it can all go a 350. i will take some before and after pix of the engine bay and post up some progress pix... i appreciate the help i seen a couple 305 camaros here in town that are really hot so that was my inspiration...

i gave it a compression test and i was getting 150 p.s.i. consistantly so the pistons and rings are in good shape..

I think Summit is blowing smoke at you. You are starting with 150 HP and Summit says that with improved exhaust, intake manifold and cam you are going to double your HP. Well I don't think it's that easy. I would love to be proved wrong on this. Please keep us posted on the outcome.


Doug

im not looking to proove anyone wrong, i just want to get some better preformance out of my el camino... i definatly will keep you guys posted on this build... i am starting on it at about 12:00 today... and like i said, if i do all this and dont like it, then i will start shopping for 350s... how much horsepower do you think i will realistically get? and i thought those stock 305s put down about 170 hp? i cant wait to tear out all that smog bull**** today... there is a camaro with a 305 in reno that has about 315hp, but the only difference between what he did and i am doing is he had some new pistons in it.

You can swap in a complete posi rear end from a Monte Carlo SS if you can find one. I got a 373 posi out of one for mine. They go right in with no problem.

just out of curiousity, how many of you guys are you riding your elco as a daily driver??

the th200r4 is the same tranny used in the monte Carlo SS, Hurst Olds and Buick grand national---the only difference in them is the valve body so if its in good shape it can handle a healthy 350--no sweat, unfortunately I am with Dougs85 on the HP---I am thinking it you break 200 you will have done good with no more than you are doing to your car but 200 hp can feel good with an overdrive and a decent rear gear so find yourself a posi in the 3.42 -3.73 range from a monte or an S10 and enjoy and when it starts feeling tame save some money and build a 350 or 383 and get quick fast...........Dan

more than going super fast, i just want the ability to burn out with ease and have a healthy sounding engine, i still want to get decent gas mileage as this will be my daily driver.... so you really think im only looking at 200 hp?

i just want to say i really appreciate all of your guys' information :D

I think Dan is about right on with the HP. But with the cam, headers and Flowmasters it should sound like more. If you also want decent gas milage, I suggest staying away from the 3.73 rear axle ratio.

Do your mods and see how you like it, you will likely feel the difference, a rear axle ratio change can come later if you feel the need.

Doug

good stuff.... hey i also started another topic about vaccume if any of you guys know how few things about how i need to run the vaccume please help me out on this topic... thanks....

http://elcaminocentral.com/ftopict-24901.html

the overdrive in the th2004r makes the 3.73 equivalent to a 2.61 with a three speed tranny and the 3.42 is equivalent to a 2.39 so they give you the best of both worlds In my Monte Carlo SS that I just sold I was getting 20+ miles per gallon with a th700r4 and a 383 that ran 12.80 quarter miles on ordinary street radials...I would not hesitate to drive it anywhere and anytime --except winter---it had all the goodies still installed and still working---air, tilt cruise , power locks and windows--it wa really the most versatile car I've ever had and it costs the boy that bought it a pretty penny because I really didn't want to sell it---but I can build another for what he paid me and have a nice little bit left over--I've already bought a burgandy one to replace the black one but it has to wait until after I finish the El Camino---who knows I may like it even better and it might take over as my favorite after all it is getting more engine and everything else to support it including a heavy dut rear that the Monte never got.......................

do you guys think ill have enough power to burnout with a posi without trying hella hard? call me lame but more than going fast, i will be probably smoking the tires in the parking lot were we all go cruising at.

Well if that's what you're mostly after, go with Dan's (old_coot) recommendation for a 3.73 rear axle ratio. With a posi you can smoke both tires. Yeah it's kind of lame, but I'm an old fart and it does not impress me.

Doug

Well if that's what you're mostly after, go with Dan's (old_coot) recommendation for a 3.73 rear axle ratio. With a posi you can smoke both tires. Yeah it's kind of lame, but I'm an old fart and it does not impress me.

Doug
so i can still get decent gas mileage on the freeway with overdrive huh? i plan on driving it to california now and then.

well, i mean i doubt i will be taking it to the drag strip, and i dont like speeding but i plead guilty to like going sideways and tire smoke. and i want the sound of a tuned v8 with a nice exhaust and a mild cam.

can i bolt an 80s camaro/firebird rear end to my eclo? i know they are unibodies but i dont know if they have a 4 link like the el caminos

Reno,

The Elky is light enough in the rear that you could spin the tires with a tired 305. My 84 still has all the factory smog junk and single exhaust but will lay black marks even while shifting gears on the roll. With gas prices the way they are, going spinning may cost you more in the long run. We all like to have fun, but you can tell those of us who are getting older, lol.

Reno,

The Elky is light enough in the rear that you could spin the tires with a tired 305. My 84 still has all the factory smog junk and single exhaust but will lay black marks even while shifting gears on the roll. With gas prices the way they are, going spinning may cost you more in the long run. We all like to have fun, but you can tell those of us who are getting older, lol.
oh i know, i layed some rubber down before i tore the engine down... but it would take a couple seconds before it would really break loose....

what i hope to get is something that will effortlessly break loose and with a posi. yeah im younger and i like donuts and burnouts hahaha. so do my buddies.

Don't worry you'll be able to smoke the tires pretty well with a posi. I do it almost daily, making sure that when I'm working on my car that I didn't FUBAR something.

Don't worry you'll be able to smoke the tires pretty well with a posi. I do it almost daily, making sure that when I'm working on my car that I didn't FUBAR something.

nice, i doubt i will ever try to race it or anything like that, but i hope i could smoke a rice rocket with my elco.

I could only spin the tires by power braking with my 305. I had a 2.41 gear though. But even in the rain I couldn't spin from a roll.

hey guys, these are the specs for the cam i bought for it...
do you think i should maybe go a little more radical?
Brand: Summit
Product Line: Summit Camshafts
Part Type: Camshafts
Part Number: SUM-1102
Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,500-4,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 214
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204 int./214 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 262
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 272
Advertised Duration: 262 int./272 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.420 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.442 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.420 int./0.442 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Intake Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash: 0.000 in.

That cam is more aggresive than the HO305 (you mentioned the 170 hp HO305 earlier).

It's actually about the same as the 1990 Camaro 305 cam specs. Probably agressive enough for something that you want to have street manners.

Here's an excel worksheet I was working on for somethign else, has an assortment of stock 305 cam specs: Cam Data (http://mikesradios.googlepages.com/camdata.xls)

good stuff, i never bought mircosoft office for my comp, but i will open that excel sheet on one of my buddies later. my question is, do you think i can get more hp out of another cam that is even a little more radical? and i love that rough idle put off by those radical cams :-D i want to get as much power as possible with out damaging my valvetrain.

i was just reading, on wikipedia it says that the 1976 305 put out 250 hp.... why is it that you guys say i will barley be getting 200 after i build it up? is the 305 that i got have like super low compression or something?

The 1976 El Camino 305 had 140 HP (engine LG3). If 250 HP for a 305 is what Wikipedia says, it is wrong. The 250 (engine (L22) had 105 HP. The 350 engine (L65) had 145 HP. The 350 4-bbl, Calif. only engine (LM1) had 165 HP. The 400 engine (LT4) had 175 HP.

I believe that 250 number you are reading is the cubic inches of the L22 engine.

You have a link for that Wikipedia info?

Doug

oh damn, i feel hella stupid... i was looking at the torque specs. for 1976... but on wikipedia it says this abouit the engine.
305
Production: 1976–1992
Displacement: 305 in³ (5.0 L)
Power: 130–250 hp (97–186 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 3.736" x 3.48"

so that means that some stock 305s could put out 250 hp.

any suggestions about possibly going with a bigger cam?

btw the guy at summit that in order to properly break the cam in, you need to run it continuously for labout 20 mins, any other tips so i dont mess the cam up?

Hmmm... not sure why Wikipeida has the 305 only up to '92. That may have been passenger cars only. The 305 was used at least until 1996 in trucks, maybe a few years after that.

Anyway, I don't remember the 1992 305s having 250 hp. The LT1 350 that was put in B bodies ('93 or '94 through '96) were rated at 275hp. Maybe that 250hp was a Camaro 305, but that's with TPI and higher compression.

Not sure how a very radical cam will do on the 305. Probably not the best idea, since the engine was not built to rev up to 6000+ rpm. You also want to make enough vacuum to run your power brakes.

Oh, flat tappet cams are a royal PIA to use today. Yes, you have to run the engine above idle (1500 - 2000 rpm) for ~20 minutes to create a wear surface on the cam and lifters. You also want to use a diesel oil, or a good oil additive with high ZDDP (zinc) content both for breakin and for normal use. Just Google "flat tappet wear" and you will get more info than you ever wanted.

Be careful about relying on what you read in Wikipedia as it's based on collaborative, volunteer user contributions, meaning users are encouraged to add their 'wisdom' to the site. This wisdom may amount to opinion and not verified fact. (My wife is a librarian and she tells me this)

cool good stuff. i sure hope i can get 250 hp from this 305. id be pretty damn happy with that. i have a buddy with a jeep that uses diesel oil instead of normal oil, are you saying that i too should do this? yeah ill keep the cam i bought for it. i should be putting that cam in tomorrow, if all goes according to plan, i only have 2 hrs a day to work on it because i have my elco at school.

but doug you were right, i need to notch out the left side of my transmission crossmember. theres no practical way i could run the ehxaust that short with the headers i got on it. any one have any pix of some ideas? i have 2 years of welding experience so fabbing up something shouldnt be a problem

Found this using the search function. Try it you'll like it.

The photo is from a post by by the late Robin Cook (Mrapii), he was a wonderful member of this forum and highly respected. So you are getting some great help from a member that has passed on.

http://elcaminocentral.com/ftopict-19050-crossmember.html

Doug

this may be a dumb question, but considering i am putting a cam in it, what should i set the timing at? would it just be factory? or is there a better setting considering im doing all of these modifications to my engine....

thanks guys.

and my new cam is hardly noticable in size of the lobes to that of my old one, maybe a 1/16 of an inch but thats it. im popping my new one in on monday at school. will that size make a difference?

It's good that there is not an extreme difference in lift. You have to remember the lobe lift is multiplied by the 1.5 ratio of the rocker arms. So you get 50% more lift at the valve.

But, you do have a lot more lift than stock. 1/16" doesn't sound like much, but valve lift is measured in thousands of an inch (valves start really flowing at 0.050" lift). Stock would be 0.351" valve lift, while late model Camaro and Corvettes had 0.41 - 0.44 inch.

You don't want to start pushing the lift, not with the pressed in rocker studs. And without good heads that can really flow, the engine won't be taking full advantage of high valve lifts.

okay, i have my old cam out and am comparing it to my new one, i am positive that the lobes size is overall bigger. my only guess is that my new lifters are longer than the old ones...would any of you guys know about that? i already got rid of the stock lifters.

i am putting the cam in tomorrow/

i put both cams between a micrometer, the stock one has a larger diameter all around but the new one has a more extreme lift. how do i compensate for having a cam that is about .100 smaller? i have to put it in tomorrow.

Where did you come up with this cam? Is there a brand name and number stamped on that cam anywhere or GM part number? If there is you can usually go on their website and get the specific info of that particular camshaft...if there isn't I would be very hesitant about installing it in any motor until you can figure out exactly what the lift and duration is...this cam may not work with your motor for a number of reasons! It may or may not work with a motor that's computer controlled or it might even be a hydraullic roller camshaft...bottom line is do not install it in your motor until you know exactly what it is and from the way your describing it, it sounds like it is a roller cam!!! You can get different size flat tappet lifters in bore size or offset, but the height is the same on all small block Chevy flat tappet hyd and solid lifters...On the other hand hydraullic roller lifters are considerably taller in height when compared to non roller lifters. Pushrods vary in length also...but at this point you need to determine if what you have is a roller cam or non-roller cam!!! Is there a lobe for a fuel pump rod on that cam?

Where did you come up with this cam? Is there a brand name and number stamped on that cam anywhere or GM part number? If there is you can usually go on their website and get the specific info of that particular camshaft...if there isn't I would be very hesitant about installing it in any motor until you can figure out exactly what the lift and duration is...this cam may not work with your motor for a number of reasons! It may or may not work with a motor that's computer controlled or it might even be a hydraullic roller camshaft...bottom line is do not install it in your motor until you know exactly what it is and from the way your describing it, it sounds like it is a roller cam!!! You can get different size flat tappet lifters in bore size or offset, but the height is the same on all small block Chevy flat tappet hyd and solid lifters...On the other hand hydraullic roller lifters are considerably taller in height when compared to non roller lifters. Pushrods vary in length also...but at this point you need to determine if what you have is a roller cam or non-roller cam!!! Is there a lobe for a fuel pump rod on that cam?
this cam isnt a roller cam, but neither was the stock one. the part number is SUM-1102 it is a summit brand, but crane makes all of the summit brand cams. the lobes are more radical producing a higher lift, we calculated the lift @ the valve and its something like .402 which is more lift than the stock one. but the only issue with the cam is when the valve is closed the entire thing is off by .100 of an inch. as far as height goes, having .100 inch longer pushrods would make it fine. but the poeple at summit told me that i would be able to just tighten the rocker arms down a little bit more which would take that small amount of slack out of the valve train.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2D1102&autoview=sku OK I found it...but did I miss something here...it says it's not compatible with a computer contolled motor.

Factory, there was another thread a few days ago, Reno is discarding all the original equipment.

Reno, are you saying the valve is 0.100" open when at the bottom of the lobe? That is not even near closed. Don't listen to people at Summit, or Jegs, or any other catalog copmany. You can tighten the rocker arm until you bend the pushrod and it won't take out any "extra lift."

The correct way to spec a cam is to install it in the block, put a dial gauge on the lifter, and with a degree wheelinstalled rotate the crank through 720 degrees to see that the valve in question is opening and closing with the correct lift. Multiply the measured lobe lift by 1.5 to get the valve lift.

Factory, there was another thread a few days ago, Reno is discarding all the original equipment.

Reno, are you saying the valve is 0.100" open when at the bottom of the lobe? That is not even near closed. Don't listen to people at Summit, or Jegs, or any other catalog copmany. You can tighten the rocker arm until you bend the pushrod and it won't take out any "extra lift."

The correct way to spec a cam is to install it in the block, put a dial gauge on the lifter, and with a degree wheelinstalled rotate the crank through 720 degrees to see that the valve in question is opening and closing with the correct lift. Multiply the measured lobe lift by 1.5 to get the valve lift.
no, im saying at the bottom of the lobe the the pushrod would have a clearance of 0.100" to the rocker arm, meaning i would need a pushrod that is 0.100" longer, but the people at summit are telling me i can tighten the rocker arm to accomidate for the minute difference... the cam's lobes are still more radical than those of my old one. i didnt even put it in today, i was too busy installling my new valve springs, retainers, and locks. i only get 2 hrs. a day to work on it :-(

it seems like tightening the rocker a little more makes sence since it is a pretty little difference, but then again im new to engines and summit could be lying to me.

i will check the geometry of my valvetrain, but i dont have those tools... ill just have to eyeball it. :-(

Oh, I understand now. Yeah, you do use the rocker arm to remove lash from the valve train. As long as the tip of the rocker is still centered on the stem you will be okay.

Though I don't know why that would have happened, did the cam specs say it needs different length pushrods?

no, on the chart that came with the cam nothing was mentioned about pushrods. i didnt think it would be a problem, and if it for whatever reason is a problem, im sure i can find 0.100" longer pushrod. :)