I have a 1980 el camino that is down to its last cylinder. I am looking at a ls1 or lt1 efi swap. the general concensus is the lt1, fuel economy is the same and power is more.

I need to know if the motor mounts from the lt1 should be used or the stock ones from the el camino.

I have been told that the oil pan on the lt1 will hit the cross member on the el camino unless the lt1 is from a vette, is this true?

also what needs to be done to run the fuel return line to the tank?

I have done engine swaps before but its a little different on the cars I am used to.

The LT1 has a flatter torque curve then the LS1 but the LS1 can add HP easier then the LT1. Gas mileage is about the same give or take a little.

I used my stock V8 motor mounts for my LT1. I did replace the rubber bushings with new poly ones. They are a direct bolt on. The LS1 would need a custom setup. Not too hard to do but a little bit of work.

The LT1 oil pan will not hit the crossmember. But the LS1 will, most LS1 installs need a custom oil pan or the crossmember needs to be cut and boxed.

The fuel system is up to you. I ran new braided line for the fuel and the return lines. I also replaced the gas tank with a baffled one that is for a 4.3L fuel injected El Camino (around a 1986). I also replaced the tank sending unit with one for a FI so it would have the return connection. I know a few people have modified their carb one to have a return line, so that would be up to you.

the lt1 is the v8 right??? I am still having a hard time keeping them straight so don't laugh too hard.

why is the ls1 easier to upgrade?

will it really make a difference since when I go to upgrade I plan on turbocharging anyway?

thanks for the tip on the gas tank you say the 1986 ran fi, I know on honda's the sender unit is an all in one mounted in the tank is it a seperate part on the 86 el camino or can you get tank and sender as a unit ( say at a junkyard), that sounds like the easiest for the return line.

the elcamino currently has the stock v6 but you say the stock v8 from the engine will work, cool, any idea where to go for them, preferebly the urethane bushings?

thanks for the help

The LT1 and the LS1 are both V8's.

The LS1 is easier to make power with basically because it's a better design. The intake, heads etc all flow better so power is easier to add. To give you an idea a stock LT1 had about 270hp at the flywheel (this is toward the end of production). A stock LS1 was rated 345hp for the last year of the Camaro but most were dynoing at 300~320 at the rear wheels. Figure a 15-20% loss for drivetrain and you can see they were underrated for flywheel numbers.

As far as turbocharging I can't say. But a friend of mine who probably has the fastest LT1 on the West coast had about 680 rwhp with a Y-trim blower. With the new changes he's making we figure he will have about 800hp! If you want to check his Camaro out look at http://www.poltergeist.us/robss the thing is a beast.

You probably could get the sender and tank as one item from a junk yard. I never tried. Since I was doing the new motor I didn't want to have to worry about crap being in the tank and making it's way into the motor. The sender goes into the tank. It is a separate part but does go into the tank. Does that make sense?

As far as the motor mounts you can check the junk yards for them. The poly bushings I picked up from Performance Suspension (http://www.performancesuspension.com/) but I know a few other places carry them. Putting the new bushings in are easy and if you search on here I know it was talked about not too long ago on how to do it. If you can't find the thread let me know and I can help.

Hey Poltergeist, besides the motor mount and oil pan problems with the LS1 swap isn't there also accessory drive problems, esp. the AC compressor?

Yes the AC compressor is another problem. Although with the LS1 you can take the compressor off and not affect the belt for the other power accesories.

The compressor can be a problem with the LT1 also. If you get a Corvette LT1 then you are OK but the Impala or Camaro setup hit the frame. I'm currently running an AC delete pulley on my LT1. Trying to decide the best way to go, Corvette setup, March or Zoop pullies etc.

Both motors have their problems with an install into 'older' cars. But for the most part the LT1 is a little easier.

Not sure about your year but this placee makes pans ansd motor mounts for different years. http://www.hotrodlane.cc/

I have a new set of motor mounts from street performance. They solve the problem of installing the motor but create a problem for ac compressor. It won't fit on the bottom any more. They do offer a solution for that also. Costs about 1100 for a new belt system. involves putting a different power steering pump, an lt1 style air conditioning compressor, remote resevoir for the power steering. Putting the ls1 in mine. Just got a set of mounts from BRP in georgia. Haven't lifted the motor back in yet but boxed the rear of the crossmember for the pan allready. They are putting a ls1 in 88 monte and chose to slide motor back and avoid pan mod or crossmember mod. If my compressor hits front of crossmember I am going to put a small box in front. Had wiring harness reworked by guy in LA when I was there on business. Put a new tank like poltergeist did with new pump. Used a fuel line setup from street performance that uses a 98 vette filter that had a return on it. Lots to do for either of them. LT1 or LS1.

Unless you really gotta have it the LS1 conversion is a real pain in the butt and in my opinion not worth it. With the exception of the weight advantage of the aluminum block (and you can get an traditional all aluminum small block) I can't think of any advantage to the LS1 engine. Can somebody wise me up?

The LS1 is one hell of an engine. Being able to add HP to one is pretty easy. With just bolt ons you can add 25-50hp, this on a motor that is dynoing 280-325 rwhp bone stock. Plus guys are stroking and boring them to get even more. Having a 427 small block LS1 with 550+hp is getting be more common. I know other Camaro owners that with adding ported heads and a 224 (intake lobe size) cam, having 400 rwhp through the stock exhaust manifolds and still being smog legal (for the sniffer). The only thing that might be better will be the LS2 (6.0L aluminum block) that is coming out in the 2005 Corvette which is currently being said to be 400hp.

For a 346 ci small block being able to add hp to a motor has never been easier. With just a few bolt ons my Camaro is dynoing 325 rwhp and gets about 21mpg on the freeway.

Ok, if you're starting out with an LS1 in a Corvette, Camaro or Firebird that makes sense. But if you have to swap one in with all of the hassles that doesn't make sense. The same horsepower levels can be obtained with a traditional small block for less money; stroker kits and modified heads are a lot cheaper. I still don't get it. The LS1 doesn't have any inherent advantages: no exotic drivetrain, no bullet proof lower end, no packaging advantages (disadvantages yes!). Give me a good reason to put an LS1 in my El Camino.

Yes you can get close to the same hp levels with a traditional SB. But will it be streetable? Will it get good gas mileage? NO. Also the SB you are talking about would never be a smog legal swap, the LS1 could be if that's what the person wants. The LS1/LS6 Gen III is where the GM line of motors has evolved to. No Gen I small block comes close to it. Sorry that's just the way it is. You do the same mods to an LS1 that you would do to the SB that you are talking about and the LS1 will bet it for HP and streetablity. The LS1 is only slightly harder now then an LT1. This was a different story 2 years ago when I started on my Elky. I would have been one of the innovators at the time. Now many places are selling things to help them be installed.

Get a ride in a stock or slightly modified LS1 and that will give you a good reason.

It's up to you what you put in your ride. I'm not going to convice anyone what to do or not do. I haven't listened to anyone on what I've done so far to my Elky, so I'm not about to try and convice someone what to do to theirs.

What is so different about an LS1 compared to a traditional small block that would make it inherently more powerful? Streetable small block Chevys with 550 hp are available as crate engines. I'm not knocking anybody's idea for a LS1 swap. I'm just not convinced that there is any more horsepower, durability or driveability in an LS1 compared to a traditional smallblock. If I were swapping an LS1 into my Elky I would have to consider that the extra costs could buy a lot of horsepower for my traditional smallblock. Convince me that I'm wrong.

Where are " Streetable small block Chevys with 550 hp are available as crate engines" avalible from? Post a link.

Well here is just one (there are others) BILL MITCHELLE (http://www.theengineshop.com/)
"610 hp at 6,400 rpm and 584 lb-ft at 4,500" "Yup--they run on 91 octane and they're designed and built to drive forever."
Are quotes from the Hot Rod Magazine article on the engine.

Yep for $10,000 you can get 600hp from a bored and stoked Gen I small block.

Like I said I'm not going to convice you or anyone else on what to put in their engine bay. I'm willing to help anyone that has decided to do it and that's it. You make up your mind.

I'm done with this thread unless someone asks a question about doing it and not why should they.

Hey Poltergeist I hope you're not angry. I was just trying to get a good discussion going regarding the advantages/disadvantages of an LS1 vs Gen 1 Chevy small block. You asked if I had ever driven an LS1 equipped vehicle, yes I have. As the technical consultant for our local Corvette club I have driven several LS1s and also LS5s, LT4s and ZO6s. I am very impressed with the power and smoothness of the LS1, but thats not the entire point. We are talking about an engine swap; ease of installation, cost and other things should be considered. You are obviously very skilled and knowledgeable, I have read many of your posts and also scrutinized the Members Gallery. You should be very proud of the Elky you built and especially the work you did on installing that LS1. I've been around the block once or twice also and know a thing or two about Chevy smallblocks. Now many of the fellas that come to this forum are newbies and I think it would be wrong to let them think that an LS1 swap is the only way to get power, reliability and good fuel mileage. Please accept my apology if you thought that I was disrespecting you, that was not my intention. Hey someday I may want an LS1 in my 5th Gen and I could certainly use your help.

No problem. I just don't want to make it seem like I'm pushing people for an LS1, LT1 or even GN Turbo V6. That is something for each owner to decide on their own. That was why I was saying I didn't want to convice you. I might convince someone else to go one way or the other instead of a small block that they want and could do easier.

No engine swap should be attempted unless the person is aware of what's involved. Even doing the motor you linked to earlier would not be just a drop in. You would need to upgrade the fuel system (lines especially) a tranny to handle it, driveshaft, rearend, etc.

The original question of this thread was which was easier and which was better for upgrading later on between the LT1 and LS1. I still feel between the 2 that the LT1 is a little easier to install but the LS1 is easier to upgrade later on to get more hp. The intake and head design of the LS1 and LS6 are some of the best there has ever been. And the aftermarket is coming up with improvements all the time. There is even a cam only upgrade for a stock LS1 that will push it to 450hp. But it is a very radical cam and the tolerances are way to close for me to want to put it in my motor. Plus it would never pass smog and I want at least 1 smog legal car. :lol:

Also I did not do an LS1 in my El, its an LT1. If I was doing it now there is a good chance I might do the LS1. Hard for me to say because the LT1 has the torque curve I want for towing and its a kick in the butt to drive. A very fun motor. Like I said installing an LS1 in earlier iron is much easier now then 2 years ago when I started. There wasn't even software avaliable to reprogram the LS1 ECM back in the dark ages when I started. Now there is LS1Edit and a few others are saying they will have something soon.

Poltergeist, I was hoping you could answer a couple of questions for me. What is the part number of the corvette bracket you puchased and was that all you needed to make the conversion? Also I got a look at your tranny crossmember and it has lots of room for exhaust. Did you purchase that and if so where?

Hotrod the bracket is GM # 12550052. And no it is not all that is needed for a conversion. Total I figure there are about $700 (if you get the good guy price) worth of parts that are needed. Idlers, power steering pulley, AC compressor, AC lines, crank hub, etc. I'm probably not going to use mine but go with a March pulley system. A little more expensive but I can get everything I need at once and it will look better.

The tranny crossmember I got from http://www.geocities.com/gforcejohn/ but there is someone at maliburacing.com that is making them now for half the price.

Drat! I forgot about the crank hub being different. I'll need that as well. I have a complete system out of a trans-am. Knowing that is there more needed than the bracket and hub? Also I don't think I need to hook up the A.I.R. pump. Did you? If not is there a delete pulley for this? Your web site is a great source of information.

Drat! I forgot about the crank hub being different. I'll need that as well. I have a complete system out of a trans-am. Knowing that is there more needed than the bracket and hub? Also I don't think I need to hook up the A.I.R. pump. Did you? If not is there a delete pulley for this? Your web site is a great source of information.

Yep there's more, everything I listed above is different. Pullies, idler, AC compresser (bolts from the side not the front), power steering pump I think is different also. That's why the price comes so high to switch. There is an AC delete pulley that will work with what you have and is what I'm doing right now, I'll try and get the part number when I get home tonight. You could also cut and box the frame there to make it work with your current setup. Kinda wish I had done that when the motor was out but I didn't think doing a Vette setup would be that expensive.

For 95 and up there is a Technical Service Bulliten out that you can legally delete A.I.R. pump. So I did not install it. There is not a delete pulley for the AIR pump mostly because one is not needed. Its an electric pump and not driven by the belt.

OK Thanks. I think I will do the same and just do the A/C delete. Should be a whole lot cheaper. I read in another post someone said all they had to do was heat up the area where there was an interference with a torch and beat it out with a ball peen. I might check that out first. Have you heard of that?

I have heard of people doing the 'heat and beat' before. I don't know the limitations of how much you can do it to get the clearance needed. Or how strong it is afterwards.

Since I'm uninstalling my crate 350/330 and installing an LT-1, I thought I'd start up this thread again. Thanks for the good info.

By the way, I'm an LS1/LS2/LS6 fan and here's a link to a guy that writes very good tech articles for the GM Gen III smallblock motors: http://www.idavette.net/writers.htm

Since I'm uninstalling my crate 350/330 and installing an LT-1, I thought I'd start up this thread again. Thanks for the good info.

By the way, I'm an LS1/LS2/LS6 fan and here's a link to a guy that writes very good tech articles for the GM Gen III smallblock motors: http://www.idavette.net/writers.htm

Have you picked up an LT1 yet? If not I have a few suggestions on years and reasons why.

I got a '94 5.7 out of a Firebird, but I'm not "wedded" to it, I got it at a great price from a "yard" where Bill Waxler and I've bought two other LT-1s, his in his '86 SS and another he installed in a street rod. I could always sell this one if it's not a good start.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
-dan

95s have the vented Optispark to help keep it from failing. The 94 can be upgraded for that. 94-95 are OBDI and can be reprogrammed a little easier then ODBII.

96-97 have the vented opti also. While they are OBDII and little harder to program there is more software for finding problems. The OBDI market is not quite good.

If I was doing it again I would probably get a 96-96 since I have the software to use from owning my Camaro. It would make troubleshooting problems easier. Just my .02 FWIW.

Okay. Thanks, Rob.

back to the question about the ac, oil pan, and alt on the ls1. The back crossmember will need to be cut and boxed, the ac will work, but it also requires a small bit of clearing of the crossmember if you ever want to take it off. The alt will hit the steering box, but we move the stock alt up top were the egr valve was. the oil pan will not need to be cut. the fuel system is real ez we make a kit to use the single dead-head ls1 fuel rail. kit includes fuel filter, fuel regulator, 6' of 6an ss line, and all fuel fittings. this is giving using our motor mounts and crossmember. i'll post pics.

thanks scott

Most LS1 conversions people have the pan notched instead of the crossmember. Choice is cutting an oil pan or cutting the crossmember. It's up to the individual but for me if I ever put an LS based motor in an older car I'll notch the pan before a crossmember.

Poltergeist, I know this thread is ancient but I am ressurecting it again. :) My LT1 is in the final assembly stage on a rebuild and I was wondering if you ever got that a/c delete bracket part number?

Try 10115875. At http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm it shows up at $36.96

rwd_pete, thanks! I just ordered it. :)

shake out the mothballs it's my turn again.

is there a conversion kit to swap the lt1 camaro accessories to the vette lt1 accessories, so that I don't have to mod the frame/crossmember.

basically to put the camaro lt1 in but use the position of the vette brackets.

could I not use the stock vette brackets? thanks

You would need stock Vette: AC bracket, AC compressor, power steering pump, idler pulley, power steering pulley, and crank hub. The Vette stuff has a different line up for the belt.

cool thanks, I take it then that the altenator and water pump don't need to be swapped?

The water pump is driven off a pin from the cam shaft. No belt touches it.

The alternator should be the same. I hope it is anyway since I plan on using mine when I convert over to the Vette setup.