Aloha all,

Having a real problem. My car seemed to be running rich, however I just chalked it up to age of the car and components. I removed the catalatic converter (had a mean rattle to it) and now it appears to be running really, really rich....burn your eyes if you are standing behind the car or in a drive through rich!!

The plugs, cap, rotor, wires and pcv have less than 3000 miles on thim. New O2 sensor and the carb (rebuilt) came from Guareenteed Carbs and has just about 3000 miles on it as well. Havent; pulled the plugs yet, but i suspect that it is rich. The motor is completely stock to include stock (rebuilt) Q-Jet.

I have no check engine light issues or codes as I have checked for that several times. The choke is working properly and the engine does not run rough or mis fire. Cant really speak on gas mileage as I do not drive it every day...matter o' fact, today is the first time I have driven it in over a week.

Starts up normally, however even when cold or hot, white/gray smoke comes out of the tail pipe for a few (2) seconds then it disappears. The M/C solenoid clicks like it is supposed to, so I am pretty sure that the circuit is acting correctly.

Lastly, from what I can tell, I have no vaccuum leaks or exhaust leaks. Someone mentioned earlier in another post that it could be the EGR valve. Not a big deal changing it, just want to know a way to test it before I spend the cash on a new one.

Thanks again to any ideas as well as to all that reply. Willing to try anything at this point as it makes the car less enjoyable when I sit in a drive through and my eyes are burning from the exhaust. Oh, by the way, my exhaust exits from the rear bumper, not to the side.

Aloha'z:nanawrench:

If you have a carb and it is not back firing look down the carb to see if it is flooding.If you look down the carb and can see fuel at idle it is flooding just not enough to trip the check engine light but enough to smell in the exhaust.
If you want to check the EGR while it's running pull the vacuum hose off the EGR and attach and vacuum pump (handheld) create a vacuum and the engine should stumble and or die.
You should check the O2 sensor as that will cause a rich condition or MAP sensor and I'm sure there are others to check.
The smoke is most likely valve stem seals if it only smokes after setting and clears up in a few seconds.

Do you have access to a Tech 1 scanner? I had a similar problem on my '87 and found that the Throttle Position Sensor was mis-calibrated. The computer thought the throttle was open more than it actually was, and called for more fuel. I gained 3 mpg once it was adjusted correctly, with much crisper throttle response and no more unburnt fuel smell. If you have a digital voltmeter, I can find the diagnostic procedure in the shop manual for you, but a scanner is the easiest way.

Bill

the smoke on startup sounds normal. many motors as they rack up miles smoke on start up and clear up within a second or two, mostly due to worn valve seals, or maybe even worn valve guides in the heads. oil leaks from the top of the head along the stem of the valve and into the combustion chamber....

when your car is running at idle op, does it smoke slightly from running too rich? it may be as easy as turning down the idle air screws in the front of the base of the carb. theres a few ways people like to adjust them but i like to close them slowly one bank at a time untill the motor stumbles a little and open them till it runs smooth, then go back and forth bank to bank untill im happy with it. if that kills your mieleage close them half a turn or so untill youre happy with it.
if its factory, it most likeley has a quadrajet, and an electric metering type plug in the top of the carb if its new enough, it controlls the ignition timing since that type setup doesent have the vaccum advance for ignition timing. but messing with the idle air screws wont hurt anything unless you get it really out of adjustment.

Kinda sounds like the float level in that carb is set too high. And just because it's a fairly fresh carb, doesn't mean it couldn't be the problem.
If you feel comfortable with removing the carb and removing the top off of it, you can check/set the float level.

Do you have access to a Tech 1 scanner? I had a similar problem on my '87 and found that the Throttle Position Sensor was mis-calibrated. The computer thought the throttle was open more than it actually was, and called for more fuel. I gained 3 mpg once it was adjusted correctly, with much crisper throttle response and no more unburnt fuel smell. If you have a digital voltmeter, I can find the diagnostic procedure in the shop manual for you, but a scanner is the easiest way.

Bill

Aloha BillyJack,

Went to check on a tech 1 scanner on ebay and found that they running upwards of $400.00. If/when I switch to a 350 motor with carb w/vac advance and new distro, will the Tech 1 scanner be usable? Not sure when I will make the switch, however trying not to spend 400 bucks on a tool that I may use only one.

I do have a digital multimeter readily accessable so will definitely appreciate using that method as even my auto parts house does not have a working scanner for rent.

Thanks again in advance.

check all your plug wires....:dontknow:

KJ,
The TPS is located at the upper left (driver's) side of the carb. You'll want to set up a digital voltmeter to read the voltage between the center and lower terminals of the three pin connector while it's still connected. With ignition "on", engine not running, throttle at slow idle and A/C off, the voltage should read .50 to .58 volts. A little outside that range is OK, but anything over 1 volt at idle will cause a serious rich condition, as the computer thinks the throttle is open and needs more fuel. A trouble code will only be triggered anytime the TPS voltage exceeds 5 volts, so it can run quite rich without the SES light coming on.

Bill

First of all, I have been there before. The solution was more
involved than I hoped, but got a darn good education from it.

A number of issues can cause the rich running problem, most
namely is the Mixture control solenoid, followed closely by
The O2 sensor.

Simply clicking isn't enough of a test to ascertain it's function,
you need to look at it's duty cycle- this can be accomplished
with a dwell meter.

In addition, you'll need to watch your O2 sensors reactions
in real time, and that will need a digital voltmeter.

It will also be handy to watch the TPS sensor through it's
range, which can also be checked with a digital voltmeter.

The ECM simply adjusts according to the amount of oxygen
and throttle position, assuming it's in closed loop.

If your computers temp sender doesn't report a up to temp
engine, it will stay in a start-up rich mode waiting for closed
loop.

There are a number of tools/products out there that can display
this info, and most, used aren't that pricy. (eBay)

Do you have the factory service manual?

Joe

Aloha all,

After checking out misc items on the engine, I noticed that one of the post said something about checking the carb/intake bolts....well sure enough, my carb was leaking like a collander full of water. Everybolt on the carb as well as the base was loose, (not more than a few pounds)!

Not sure what caused all of them to be loose, but sure enough, tightened everything up and my 305 pepped right up, no more running rich or burning eyes from the exhaust!:nanawrench:I am so glad that I didn't buy that EGR valve! While not a hard item to change, the one I have on the engine seems to be working correctly! I will still check out the other things listed like the TPS. I have been looking for a "good service manual" as I only have the Haynes manual which is extremely vague. i think i will also be investing in a Q-JET manual as i have so many questions about that carb and how it functions.

Thanks again to all!:You_Rock:

That's good to hear! I love happy endings...

Joe

Manuals are usually available on Ebay for our El Caminos. I even bought a body manual for the GM cars of my year, for $9.95, plus shipping, since I was the only bidder. The Q-jet manual you mentioned would have to take in the late eletronic type Q-jets, to make it useful to you, since many things are different from the older carbs.

Great to hear you bestowed much Aloha on your ride and have it perking like it should.:smileyb:

PILA

:???: ...well, here we are right before Christmas and I had to get the El Co towed home. Not sure what is going on now with my ride. Here goes......

My car has been starting fine first thing in the morning, after driving for about 30 minutes and parking it for about 10 minutes or so, it will not start unless I pump the fuel pedal a few times, I get a puff of white smoke and the car starts up.

Night before last, I drove about a mile and a half from my house to get a video, was out of the car for less than 10 minutes. Tried to start the car, no good. Pump the gas pedal a few times, no good. After 15 minutes of trying I decided to call AAA who promptly dispatched a flatbed to be. Well, tried to start the car the same night and still wouldnt start.

We to work, came home pumped the pedal three times and the car started right up???? I am really lost now as I still believe that it is the carb as it is still running super super rich. I have removed the cat converter which seamed to make the smell of fuel even more apparent. I can't even walk past the car when it is running without rubbing my eyes or coughing.

Something else I noticed, my MC solenoid never stops clicking? I mean I know that it will click for about 30 seconds with just the ignitiion on but is it supposed to run all of the time when the engine is running? I need help for sure as I do not even enjoy driving the car anymore because of the smell of the exhaust.

There appears to be no leaks around the carb or the base. Replaced plugs, cap, rotor, wires. K&N filter. All stock other than that.

Please help!

Sounds like you have a computer on the fritz. Now might be a good time to dump the whole computer system and replace the carb and distributor since you plan on doing it when you replace the 305 anyway..get ahead of the curve......Dan

Roger that,

Trying to get tech support from Guaranteed Carbs before I take this thing off. The carb has been on the car less than a year and I have never experienced anything like it. Will be going out this weekend to pick up a book on the Qjet.

One issue that I have noticed is that the epoxy near the fuel inlet is cracked/soft and smells like fuel. Cant post a picture from work but I am sure that this is standard on every Qjet. I am wondering if this is part of the problem.

Also, is the MC solenoid suppose to stay on when I am driving or just when I first start the car? If it is the latter, could that be causing the car to run so rich? The engine runs perfect, no missing or overheating it just smells really really rich.

One last question, the distro (timing) is controlled by the ECM, so is it possible that the timing (position of the distro) could be off so much that the ECM is unable to keep up with the timing, thus causing the rich situation?

Thanks again to all that reply. Aloha'z:nanawrench:

There should not be any epoxy on the front of the carb around the fuel inlet, so that's problem number one. Next, a lot of "ran fine, then would not start and then started a day later" can be traced to an intermittency in the electronic module in the distributor. If you get to a no start situation again, check for spark by removing a plug wire and sticking an old plug in it, while holding the plug against a metal part of the engine. You may get shocked, but at least you'll know it is getting spark! Seriously, it is tough for the engine to get so much fuel that it won't try to fire if it is getting both fuel and spark.

Which Island are you on? I'm guessing Oahu if you have a carb shop.

King John , This may be far off base but , Have you checked your starter solinoid? I had a surburban that i would have to wait 45 min. B-4 it would start again . New starter /solinoid Problem gone. Just something to check.:dontknow: You also mentioned something about removing your cataletic converter,and this made your exhaust smell stronger.I'm Having a simular challenge w/ "88"K -5 Blazer Removed C/C And~~~ WHOO B4 removing did'nt notice What could it be ????

The epoxy on the carb has a nasty ring to it, like a cobble job by somebody, Maybe some of the smell is fuel leaking around that fitting. A short-cut may be a rebuilt carb from an auto parts store, or even having one shipped from someplace like Rock auto, etc.
If that carb is a doctored up piece, don't spend any more money on it.

There should not be any epoxy on the front of the carb around the fuel inlet, so that's problem number one. Next, a lot of "ran fine, then would not start and then started a day later" can be traced to an intermittency in the electronic module in the distributor. If you get to a no start situation again, check for spark by removing a plug wire and sticking an old plug in it, while holding the plug against a metal part of the engine. You may get shocked, but at least you'll know it is getting spark! Seriously, it is tough for the engine to get so much fuel that it won't try to fire if it is getting both fuel and spark.

Which Island are you on? I'm guessing Oahu if you have a carb shop.

Aloha,

See the attached picture. This is not my actual carb but looks just like mine. The epoxy is on the front circled in red. This epoxy is cracked and soft to the touch and smells like gas. My question is what does it do?

Aloha looks like I will be getting the ignition module, as it seams like a cheap easy to replace item. I see them at Oreily Auto from $27 up to $65. Yep, on Oahu and it is getting tough to find anyone that will even touch a Q Jet. The "fix" seams to be, go and buy a new distro and carb, which I have know intentions of doing because I have been told that the alternative will use much more gas.

King John , This may be far off base but , Have you checked your starter solinoid? I had a surburban that i would have to wait 45 min. B-4 it would start again . New starter /solinoid Problem gone. Just something to check.:dontknow: You also mentioned something about removing your cataletic converter,and this made your exhaust smell stronger.I'm Having a simular challenge w/ "88"K -5 Blazer Removed C/C And~~~ WHOO B4 removing did'nt notice What could it be ????

Pretty sure that the starter solenoid is fine because the car continues/will crank just wouldnt start. Will be changing the ignition module in the morning, as it seams to be a relatively cheap item to change. Still think that the issue is within the carb though. I only removed the catalytic converter because it was rattling so bad that it became annoying. I don't believe the smell changed any when I took it off, but right now it is unbearable and no fun to drive, let alone taking it into a drive through. Even though the exhaust exits out of the back, it is really bad when sitting at a stop light and the wind changes direction.

OK, the epoxy is covering a plug that was installed at the factory to plug the hole they drilled from the inlet into the needle and seat. For some reason, Chevrolet QJs have the inlet pointing sideways (which requires the plug) and the rest of the divisions had the inlet on the front of the carb, so there is no plug.

If the ignition module is failing, it could cause a misfire, which can cause the over rich condition. I'd take a look at it for you, but I am on Maui.

KJ,
M/C solenoid is active all the time. Older pre-computer QJets used a vacuum-actuated piston working against spring pressure to position the primary metering rods in the jets. The M/C solenoid alternates rapidly between full lean and full rich positions to achieve a suitable mixture in between the extremes.
Also, timing should not affect fuel mixture, unless you have initial timing so far out of range that the computer can't bring it inside normal operating parameters. If that were the case, it would be unlikely you could get the engine started.


Bill

KJ,
M/C solenoid is active all the time. Older pre-computer QJets used a vacuum-actuated piston working against spring pressure to position the primary metering rods in the jets. The M/C solenoid alternates rapidly between full lean and full rich positions to achieve a suitable mixture in between the extremes.
Also, timing should not affect fuel mixture, unless you have initial timing so far out of range that the computer can't bring it inside normal operating parameters. If that were the case, it would be unlikely you could get the engine started.


Bill

Roger that BillyJack,

Thanks for the info on the MC Soleniod, I thought there was something wrong with it because it is always running when the car is on. Also, just because of the price, I went ahead and changed out the ignition module under the distro cap. Didn't seam to change anything though.

I need to clarify something though, the car does run, doesn't miss it just smells really rich when sitting still or when moving for that matter. To walk behind the car when it is running is risking your clothes smelling like you work in a refinery and your eyes will surely start turn burn and water.

I am still leaning towards the issue being the carb though. Also though about sourcing out another ECM just to try it out, but I am not getting any codes so I am using that one as a last resort. Aloha'z:nanawrench:

OK, the epoxy is covering a plug that was installed at the factory to plug the hole they drilled from the inlet into the needle and seat. For some reason, Chevrolet QJs have the inlet pointing sideways (which requires the plug) and the rest of the divisions had the inlet on the front of the carb, so there is no plug.

If the ignition module is failing, it could cause a misfire, which can cause the over rich condition. I'd take a look at it for you, but I am on Maui.

Roger that Kerno,

So with that plug on my (in the previous posted picture) cracked is that something that could be causing an issue? Should I re-seal it with JB weld? Changed the ignition module because it was only $30 at Carquest Waipahu. Didn't seem to change the rich smell or condition.

As for living on Maui, where is the "Super Ferry" when I need it as I would bring my El Co over there. So far, not many people on Oahu that are willing to touch a Q-Jet. Most are saying "just toss the Q-Jet, Distro and ECM, and run a Holly with a Mallory Ignition"....maybe later, but for now I want to keep it as stock as possible for as long as possible. Aloha'z :nanawrench:

Take us back to your first post. Has it been running rich the entire 3000 miles since you replaced your carb, etc? And besides the rattle, why else did you remove the cat?

Take us back to your first post. Has it been running rich the entire 3000 miles since you replaced your carb, etc? And besides the rattle, why else did you remove the cat?

Aloha Robby,

The reason for replacing the original carb was because it was leaking and it seamed much easier to just replace the hold thing rather than having my carb re-bushed, floats etc. I believe it was always running rich, however when I removed that cat...it (the smell) became more pronounced. Also, had a hard time finding someone on the island that would even touch the Q-Jet. Most mechanics were just trying to sell me a new carb, intake and ignition system so they wouldn't have to touch my original Q-Jet.

With regards to the cat removal, it was rattling like crazy, and it took a while to figure out what the noise was because I thought it was the heat deflector. I already bought the new cat, however was warned already that until I figure out the running rich problem, I will likely be replacing the cat again because the rich issue will cause the cat to get clogged up.

Aloha'z

Assuming the carb was correctly rebuilt and everything else is in good working order, the carb still needs adjusting after install. Do you have access to a dwell meter?

Assuming the carb was correctly rebuilt and everything else is in good working order, the carb still needs adjusting after install. Do you have access to a dwell meter?

Can't say that I do, but can go and purchase one tomorrow. I know that there is a green plug near the carb that is suppose to be for the dwell, just will need to know what and how to test and adjust the carb. Will be going to Borders Books tomorrow to locate a book on the Q-Jet.

In my head i'm thinking, how hard could this be?:nanawrench:

Assuming the carb was rebuilt correctly with the correct gasket set and the initial (internal) adjustment of the float level, m/c solenoid plunger and (external) idle air bleed valve, throttle position sensor (TPS) and mixture screws are correct, you can use the dwell meter to fine tune the carb.

This is actually a fairly easy carb to rebuild - but you do need some very specific tools to make the initial adjustments during rebuild. Two books that I would recommend for reference is Haynes Techbook Rochester Carburetor Manual 10230 (2068 and the Factory Manual. The Haynes will easily walk you through a rebuild and initial adjustments. My favorite gasket rebuild kit is from GP Sorensen p/n 96-566A.

My guess, is that you are actually running lean (typical of the burning eyes and burned out cat). Pull a spark plug and do a visual check - wet and oily or dry and ashen? You could also check for gas in your engine oil. If your really running rich and washing down the cylinder walls with gas, the gas would thin the oil. But start with the plug check.

Just jumping in , the 85 does not have a TP senser ,,,,,,,,Dont wast your Money Ck your states Emission Laws Here in Texas on My 85, I removed all Emmission and electronic Emission Items
Installed a Non Emis HEI from Summit , and a Non Emis Carb From Summit , BUT check your laws It cost me WAY less to remove all The Electronics ,:texas::nanawrench:Than to Fix all the Old out Dated Stuff
AND runs it Butt Off ..

fixitman-1

Yes, the '85 does have a TPS. And what you did by removing all of your emissions items is still illegal in Texas even if they don't do test after 25.