Hello E.C.C.,
Okay, I have an '82 Elco I just purchased about a month n a half ago, the guy who had it before me spent over 2k in the motor in machining and valvetrain work and bought a NEW 700r4 trans... He tried to make a racecar (epic fail) and all I want is a medium-range HP traveler/commuter. My problem is that he rigged the intake/carb for ZERO smog, in a smogging state. I hate carburation anyways and i would like to go towards an LT-1 type set-up without the pricetag.

So my question is, is it possible, using the appropriate ECM, harness, and fuel-system mods, to directly bolt on a TPI set-up off of an 80's model camaro/firebird? I am a huge fan of TPI, believe in its reliability, and power...and seeing those huge runners comin off the plenum.The motor that's in the Elco now is the factory 305 *based on the casting #s* with the factory heads... Any info is appreciated!

Hello
Im in the begining stages of converting my 82 elcky to TPI also. I found a lot of info in the FORUMS section for LT1/TPI-EFI's and also at maliburacing.com. There are several books devoted just to TPI conversions out there too. In my case I traded a couple of carbs and a intake for a TPI sys that someone else had given up on because it was too complicated and expensive. All i can say is that it is complicated and expensive if you dont get a complete set-up all from one car. I'm piece mealing mine together and trying to get compatible parts has been a pain . One suggestion is to look into aftermarket systems and even thier retrofit sysytems like the one FAST puts out. Reconfigureing the OEM electronics is what I consider the hardest part, but there are dozens of forums and people that have done this conversion many times. Do your research first it will save you a ton of time and money.
Good Luck Mike

IT is very doable, but not for the faint of heart. It is also not cheap. I picked up a 'Complete" TPI setup, including all the wiring harnesses, for $200. My total to get it all up and running was close to $1800. In the end though, it was worth it. Car runs great, has a lot of torque, will chirp the tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, gets 21 mpg on highway.

You will want a setup from an '86 if you can find it to match up with your heads. Don't get an '85- they had a funky ECM for that year only. '87-up will work, but you will have to massage the intake to get it to fit.

If you want more info, I have a lot of detail on my website listed below in my signature. Go to the TPI page, and you will find a lot of links and uploaded files and spreadsheets. Feel free to ask questions.

Before my LS1, did a86 tpi swap wire for wire into fusebox factory style. Because of age now, I would not reccomend this with old harnesses. I,d reccomend either howell or street & performance, -they both actually make the harnesses. You need a proper cam also Better harnesses use speed sensor, you need $130 adapter to use your cable speedo.I had homeported 305 H.O. heads & crane compucam& mildly cleaned up factory runners. For the good part, 305 with 260 comp cam was a DOG with carb, couldn,t believe the extra grunt up to approx4500 to 5000 rpm. then even my version became a restriction. GREAT for street though. As others said, Alot of work & $ to get going, but not bad result. Personally though, in 2011, you may want to look into a pickup 5.3 ls setup as `affordable' for the result. Newer, matching setup, no oil leaks & probably easier to get past emissions. There is a new hp book on ls swaps by shawn henderson ofretro lsx that has a g-body 5.3 example swap. Something to consider,don,t regret my99'LS1/t56 swap I completed in 03'.:secret:P.S.- Tuned port injection specialties is one of the originators of the tpi swap.

Thank you everyone for the help. I have been doing GOBS of research on this topic and I am still more and more suprised by it... I have been finding the manifolds+plenum+runners, and even in some cases injectors/throttle body/ECM and harness for around $400... I am fairly sure the motor I have now is already tuned with a bigger cam based on exhaust note and difficulty of timing, so if a bigger cam is neccessary, im good... I do NOT want to go LS simply because of the price tag... I'd like to ATTEMPT to do the entire swap, cleaning up old parts and purchasing some new for under $700. I know how to make this car scream down the strip, however I'm going for BUDGET not bankrupt... I will invest the funds for this swap into wiring and fuel delivery more than anything, however I will be keeping a keen eye out fot the '86 intake setup... another tech question...

In tuning the ECM, post install... is there any available software out there that is already "preset" to the flow of my heads/air-fuel ratio/etc... or at least a program I can play with? I will be using my stock exhaust manifolds and will be keeping the 700r4 for YEARS to come... so is there a TCM prom to handle as well???

something else I just researched using visual aids, I noticed that all the carburated intake manifolds have an extra port used as a coolant passageway... however, the TPI style manifolds have this port blocked... at least the ones I have seen... So... will this set-up still work??? I appears that at least 4 of the coolant passages that go into the block are still available with the TPI manifold...

Have you seen this article?
http://www.classictrucks.com/tech/0404cl_tuned_port_injection_questions/index.html

Although my memory is a little dated now on tpi info, afew more points to make to you. TPI in particular will not do well with a small lobe center, long duration, low vacuum producing cam. If you have the spec sheet, you can contact someone likeT.P.I.S. to see if it could be run. Yes there are `mail order tunes' made to spec.Could also check with EFI Alchemy, their tunes may be cheaper. Another reason for proper camshaft selection is intake manifold tuning, in other words TPI runners are tuned for lower rpm torque. If you use a wrong,highrpm cam & do get it to run, the cam won,t make power till the intake is not making power. Make sense? Another fact is you can use a later harness with the 85-86 head pattern. Don,t quote my memory for certain on these year changes, Approx 88-89 went from 9th injector cold starting to being programmed in to the 8 injectors, also V.A.T.S. kicked in, which requires either computer removal or a bypass module. All early units were M.A.F. sensor systems, I think 90-92 was the speed density. Don,t worry about the water passages. we're not trying to be the harvengers of doom on you doing this project for cheap, just trying to make you understand fromsometimes hard learned experience what is involved & why compatibilityof all parts is necessary.This is why complete, already running EFI swaps are so popular now.:let_it_all_out:

Thank you for all the input yet again... Still diggin around still trying to set-up a gameplan... Thank you for the info on who to go to for the tunes... I know that my "$700" budget is WAAAYYY LOWBALLIN... but I'm attempting to do this to prove a point to a select few individuals, and at the same time save some coin... I don't really care if the parts are used or not, as I am pretty proficient at restoring older, worn down parts... With that in mind, I'm fairly sure almost all of the $$$ is going to be going into a new set of injectors and the electrical... If possible...Does anybody have a wiring diagram by chance with a way to use the factory wiring with this type set-up??? Can I 86 the original ECM if I am going this far already??? This is what I am mainly concerned with... Thank you.

If you go to my website( See my signature), I have spreadsheets on the wiring that will tell you exactly what needs to be changed- I think it is 6-8 pins in the harness. There is also a spreadsheet there that details every part that I needed to make the swap, including the costs.

You may get by with a lower budget by using used parts. The TPI system I used was off the car when I bought it , so I had no idea what worked and what didn't. I didn't want to get it all installed, and find that I could not get it to work. Troubleshooting the system with unknown parts was going to be a bitch. So I went with more new parts than maybe was required. A good rule of thumb I have heard before is to plan a budget, and then double it. Expect the worst, and if you come out ahead, then you have money to burn.

The harness I used, being old, required many new connectors to replace the broken ones. New ( or refurbished) injectors is a good idea. It is a real pain to swap them out if they don't work. Eliminating the 9th injector is also a good idea, since they are no longer available, and usually don't work. You can do the tuning yourself with a free copy of TunerPro, and some eprom burning equipment form Moates.net. Fuel delivery can get expensive if you want to do an in-tank pump. Doing an external pump will be a little cheaper. You'll need to switch to electric fans to clear the intake.

In my spreadsheets there is a also a step by step project plan, detailing all of my "To do's". It will be good reading to get a feel for what is required for the R&R. Do a lot of research before starting. Get a 3-ring binder with dividers and keep everything you find organized. You will refer back to that binder many times during your project and after.

Okay, I will be getting my first pieces in this week... I will be trading my current carb/intake setup straight accross for a fresh TPI manifold, runners, injectors, distributor, ecm, and rails off an 86 firebird!!! PERFECT!!!... not bad i think...Thank you to darbysan for the info! I am currently searching for either a salvage gas tank, or a cheap 35-40psi inline pump... recommendations??? CHEAP IS KEY!!! On that note, should i upgrade the fuel lines to a thicker, more durable material than the cheap ass 29 year old hoses??? i don't have the funds for the badass braided lines, any rec's???

Keeping in mind that i must be smog legal, are there any "special" smog hook ups on the manifold short of the EGR valve??? And if so, can the manifold be "tapped" to accept various inputs, vaccum lines, etc??? I would also like to retain the function of my top vents for the a/c...

And finally, does anybody know any NEWER, cost effective serpentine belt set-ups that would mount on the block and heads on this motor, all the while retaining the smog pump??? I hate screwing around with more than 3 freakin belts!!! and you get smoother power from a serp set-up...

I just realized, based on what I'm currently doing and aiming for, this entire swap, if everything goes "AS PLANNED" and as estimated, is at a total cost of an old intake and carb, and about $300... cross your fingers and advice is EXTREMELY APPRECIATED in terms of cost-effectiveness...

Good trade! Now, for the info. You will need Fuel Injection Hose to replace the old rubber hose. The old hose will not hold the pressure, even if it was new. You'll need about 10' of 3/8" hose, and I bought a roll of 25' of 5/16" on e-bay. I used the 5/16" as the vent line to the tank. This does not need to be FI hose- regular gas hose is Ok here. I used the stock metal return line for the FI return. You'll need some 5/16" FI hose ( maybe 6-10') to hook up from the Fuel rail to the Return, and in the rear from the return line to the tank. Do not use the Vent connection on the Fuel Sender for the return- there is a baffle in there that will restrict flow. Most Elky senders have just two connections- one the fuel out, the other vent. If you don't get a FI sender, then you will need to make a third connection for the fuel return.

For the pump, you will need at least 50 PSI. For an external pump, I have seen a Ford Pickup pump used ( E2000 AIRTEX), as well as a Datsun 240Z pump (e8312). Walbro pumps are the better aftermarket pumps. For the fuel filter, use Fram G3870. It has 3/8" barb fittings both sides. Use FI hose clamps. Buy them on Ebay. I used 2 for every connection on the pressure side to be safe.

As for the Serp Setup, it is not a budget swap either. Most have the AC on the passenger side, so you wind up having to swap condensers and AC lines. My HD alternator did not swap, so I had to buy a new one. The AC compressor might have fit, but the clutch and pulley's were different, so I bought a new one there too. Some of them do not leave enough room for the TPI Intake. I would look for one off an F-body car, just to be safe. IF you get it, get the AIR pump connection parts and valves as well. Others can chime in here if they have had success with others.

thank you again for the info...
Along the lines of fuel delivery, I am still debating whether or not just to buy a used F.I. tank, sender, and pump from a salvage yard and go from there... however, the inline is SOOOO much cheaper, and retain all my factory wiring + connectors... I will probably end up tapping a hole into the tank for a return line, other than that, fuel system is not too much of a concern...

I had another brainstorm however, considering I removed the old smog pump/connections *which weren't connected anyways...pieces MISSING!!!* would the new ECU and EFI setup notice a richer air/fuel ratio??? Just a thought... and if it does notice such a difference to cause a check engine light or poor *or no* operation, then can the o2 sensors be bypassed? or can the ECU chip have the proms for the o2 sensors deleted, along with the proms for the trans, and have proms added for combustion chamber cc's, spark, etc??? Is there ANY free software that is simple to use out there so I can prom the chip myself??? or at least anyone who performs these tasks cheap??? The ECU at this point is my BIGGEST concern!!! I looked up the smog requirements for putting in a different motor in vehicles, but considering I'm only changing components, do I use the old, or the newer smog pump? Keep in mind it's the same GM block and heads... just different intake...

On the note of the serp setup, I'm not too concerned *for now* about not having a/c, however I would like to find the air pump/p.s pump/alternator/compressor package off an '86 EFI car... Any rec's??? As it stands right now, I'll probably keep the factory 4 belt system on it until I can afford the time/patience/funds for a serp setup from a salvage yard... doing this i think would also give me enough time to polish the "new" alternator/air pump/compressor to a mirror finish*considering they're made of aluminum... my manifold setup will also be polished...

thank you again for the info...
Along the lines of fuel delivery, I am still debating whether or not just to buy a used F.I. tank, sender, and pump from a salvage yard and go from there...

I had another brainstorm however, considering I removed the old smog pump/connections *which weren't connected anyways...pieces MISSING!!!* would the new ECU and EFI setup notice a richer air/fuel ratio??? ...

On the note of the serp setup, I'm not too concerned *for now* about not having a/c, however I would like to find the air pump/p.s pump/alternator/compressor package off an '86 EFI car... Any rec's???

I found my used FI tank and sender in a salvage yard for $75. They are not easy to find, but they are there. The only difference in wiring is a hot lead back to the pump, which you will need anyway. Many of the FI tanks were 22 gal, an added bonus.

If you go external pump, the 280Z pump is supposed to have a return fitting included on the rear of the pump. Essentially, you pump your return fuel right back into the pump. Not sure if this is a good idea, but... Also, without the baffled tank, you will need to keep fuel level at least 1/4 tank at all times. Additionally, external pumps are pushers, not pullers. Keep them as close to the tank as possible, and as near the bottom level of the tank. Otherwise, you will burn them up pretty quickly.

You do not need the AIR pump and connections to make the system work. You may need them to pass smog. Stock stuff fits fine. You do need the O2 sensor. Without it, your system cannot adjust air/fuel ratio. You will also need the MAF sensor, TPS sensor, manifold Temp Sensor, Water temp sensor, and EGR solenoid. If you don't have to pass smog, you can delete the EGR stuff, with some programming on the chip. As for programming, get Tunerpro. It's free, and available on line. Easy to use, once you get it set up. Lots of stuff you can adjust.

For the Serp Setup, as said before, F-body.

Okay, I will be getting my first pieces in this week... I will be trading my current carb/intake setup straight accross for a fresh TPI manifold, runners, injectors, distributor, ecm, and rails off an 86 firebird!!!

Are you getting the Engine Harness as well? If not, aftermarket harnesses are available, but are pricey. Also, the MAF sensor is very pricey.

ya, i'll more than likely find a tank and sending unit and whatnot... the thought of being stuck on the side of the road simply because it wasn't full enough doesn't entertain me... along the lines of the software...thank yoU!!!I'll be diggin around into it a little more later... This newer intake came with EVERYTHING but the harness, throttle body, MAF sensor were included which is nice...

You could adapt pump to your old sending unit as i did- see post inrogers thread. Still curious as to what you're planning on running for a cam??

Okay, so I had a possible solutions, just getting opinions here... For the EFI pump... I would like to stay at a low budget and retain funationality... So I thought..."what if I tapped 3 holes in the bottom of the tank (one center, far left, and far right) used the appropriate fittings, the walbro in-line pump, and efi hose?" I figured if "sloshing" were a problem, then adding multiple exits from various locations should "solve" the problem...no? I would invest a little cash in a piece of sheet metal to gaurd the pump and hoses from the elements should I do this... If this were feasible, then I could be paying $120 for the full get-up versus like $200 right??? Second opinions are encouraged... And yes I know that by tapping not 3, but 4 (one for return) to the tank, I'd be running the risk of leaks, however I may just tap 2 into the bottom of the tank (delivery and return) to avoid this... I've read other forums, and this idea seems like the cheapest way to go without messing around with the old sending unit and whatnot...

Okay, one more small problem... I downloaded TunerPro, however I can't find any bins??? Nor have I had a chance to use the program... PLEASE HELP!!! I downloaded 3 bins, but can't figure out how to work it!!! Does anyone have any bins, or instruction (step by step) how to use TunerPro???

probably the best method on that line of thought would be to tig weld a sump into the bottom of the tank- - - after proper cleaning methods of course. this would extend your range even without baffles.:poke:

One question. If you tap the bottom of the tank in 3 or 4 locations and go around a corner with low fuel will the pump just suck air on the side the fuel sloshes away from? I think you could use an external sump and let all those lines feed it and the pump pull from it.
I'm with Joe. Weld a sump in the tank.

Okay, one more small problem... I downloaded TunerPro, however I can't find any bins??? Nor have I had a chance to use the program... PLEASE HELP!!! I downloaded 3 bins, but can't figure out how to work it!!! Does anyone have any bins, or instruction (step by step) how to use TunerPro???

You need two files to make it work. A bin file, which is the details of the prom's programming and 2) an XDF file- a file which was developed to provide "English" definition to the assembly language of the BIN. For the ...165 ECM, use XDF file 6E.xdf. For a good starting point on a Bin File, I used bin ANYH.

Open Tunerpro, and then from the top menu click XDF, and then Select XDF. You will be able to browse to where you stored the 6E.xdf file, and select it. TunerPro will now have a bunch of information down the left side.

Now Click on File, Open Bin, and open your ANYH bin in a similar manner. Now when you click on any of the definitions on the left side, the values will pop up in the big center screen. You can change them here. Be smart in you changers, and re-save the file renaming it ( Like ANYH01, etc). Keep a separate log of what you change as you work your tune.

I will post copies of both of these files on my Website. There is a lot more to the programming , but this will get you started. If you want to learn more Thridgen.org is a very good place for TPI knowledge. For programming, see:

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/288763-prom-tuning-guide-book.html

Ran across this today on the net. Pretty good reference book on TPI.
http://american-dreams-racing.com/files/TPI%20Handbook.pdf

TPI can be fun and it can also be frustrating! I own a TPI car ('86 IROC) and have found it to be frustrating at times. I would strongly recommend www.thirdgen.org (http://www.thirdgen.org) for tuning as well. What city/state do you live in? If it's AZ, then you will need: Smog pump, egr valve, charcole cannister, A.I.R. tubes. As for a serpentine setup, I converted my IROC to the later style serp setup with the brackets from a pick-n-pull yard. Cost me around $100.00 for the brackets, alternator, power steering pump, water pump pulley and smog pump pulley. (I had to buy a new water pump as the serp setup uses a reverse rotation pump.) Also I had to buy a new A/C compressor and the passenger side A/C hoses. Any V-8 '88-'92 Camaro or firebird brackets and accessories will work (Even the TBI cars have the same brackets and there are TONS of them in the J/Y around here.)
I would strongly recommend using a F.I. tank and sender from an elky as the heat in AZ(If thats where you are located) will kill an external pump. As for tuning I would use the factory tune as a baseline to get the car running before I would mess with burning new proms. What are the last 3 numbers on your ecm's part number?

Thank you everyone for the info... All so much good info... Well, I started polishing on the upper plenum and i suddenly remembered how much of a bitch it is to polish cast to a mirror finish... Anyways, the guy who sold me the intake stuff kinda screwed me over as of right now... he only got me the upper plenum, runners, throttle body, and MAF sensor... it's a good start until he finds the distributor, rails, injectors, and lower plenum... I did however run into a gas tank out of an '88 camaro for $50 with a pump and sending unit included (used obviously) but didn't get it because I had other obligations :( Thank you drnkow... I will be scouring yards this weekend for a serp setup, and more than likely do that swap over BEFORE the TPI... simply because it's a lot less work and less of a headache... except the power steering pump possibly being different, or at least different size fittings??? I don't care about A/C right now, heat doesn't bother me much, and the smog pump, water pump, and alternator should be pretty simple??? Thank you for the info on the computer stuff btw... I was under the impression that I NEEDED to have the ECM prommed and tuned, but I did dig into the research a little bit more and found that promming these ECM's are only good if you have aftermarket parts such as cams/heads/bottom end work/ etc... all I have really is exhaust... so realistically I'm running a factory 9.3:1 compression 305 vs. the Firebird's 9.5:1 305... so there should be little to know mechanical difference correct? Again, I'm not aiming for superhuge horsepower, just reliability, MPG, and good enough power to get on the freeway in a hurry and smoke a Civic every now and again... I don't have the ECM numbers as of right now, but i know they're not the 165 model... but I may just go buy a reman from Pep-Boys or something with a warranty for ECMs... seems feasible and smart in my scenario...

Sounds like you have the TPI setup with air flow meter instead of the speed/density setup. It will read the air your engine is taking in use that to figure how much fuel to squirt, so it will correct for minor modifications. Factory prom tuning should get you running so you can sort out the system.

okay, so apparently my last post didn't go through... I just got rid of the parts that guy gave me and came across a FULL TPI setup in exchange for my current holley/edelbrock setup from an '87 Camaro IROC Z... Came wih FULL harness/rails/new injectors/upper and lower plenum/runners/all the smog stuff/ECM (165 model)/newer throttle body/maf sensor/and all associated plumbing... not too bad right? I know I'll end up boring out the four intake bolt holes to fit my heads, but other than that, it shouldn't be too bad... HOWEVER!!! I would like to know if anyone has ANY wiring diagrams that incorporate G-Body wiring to this particular ECM... All I'd really like to keep is the check engine light, speedo (USING FACTORY ECM TUNE...keep in mind I already have a 700r4), fuel gauge, and I will eventually do a nice set of gauges at some point... If anyone has access to such diagrams, please email to chopperjeremy@yahoo.com It'd be greatly appreciated... I am getting a little excited though and it's nice knowing I'm so close... I was reading on chevy thunder earlier today though and found an article discribing the distributor setup... I understand I will need an iron gear at minimum, but my question is... can I use the gear on my factory HEI distributor and swap it to the "small cap" distributor on this new intake??? or is the shaft size too big? I know the one on the motor now is the 0.491 size shaft... and the one on the "small cap" is 0.429??? so would that work??? I ask because I would like to use the ignition system off of the camaro motor so it may communicate with the ECM more effectively... unless the old one's wiring and ICM is the same??? PLEASE HELP on this matter!?!?!? I will be running the factory 165 model ECM once I get it running just to see if I even need to PROM it... On that note... I know that the 87 ECM requires a feed from the trans to get a/f ratios and other readings, does anyone know where I could pick-up the sensor for this??? I believe it is referred to as the VSS??? Thank you again and I look forward to any input...

Wiring:- if you go to my website listed below I have a spreadsheet that gives you all the changes needed to plug your new harness into the Stock Instrument panel connector. Your wiring harness from the donor car should have a 4 pin connector that fits the transmission. The VSS is already in your car, behind the dash. The wiring diagram I pointed you to has the info to make this connection included. The gears will not interchange on your distributors. You'll need one for the small head distributor. Your old distributor would work, but I think you would have to swap in your old connector.

The ECM has nothing to do at all with any guage except the Check Engine Light. I've included info on changing out the SES Light Driver Module. As for the '87 ECM, I don't remember when VATS started. If your ECM has VATS, then it will need to be disabled. Easiest way is to burn a prom with VATS not checked.

By the way, if you are still polishing the plenum, I used a belt sander to get the rough finish down to the point where it could be polished.

Damn! Those are some very slick mods on your ride.
I am blown away... Great job!!! :You_Rock:

Damn! Those are some very slick mods on your ride. :

Thanks Danny- Just trying to build it the way GM should have:nanawrench:

I love the head unit for the A/C... Inspiring!...Maybe I'll try to bring my ride's interior out of the stone age!

87 tpi does not have VATS in it.you still may want to use later programming for cold start & purchase a 9th injector plug. As for g-body wiring, youdon,t have to plug in to the fusebox just like the factory did, you can tap in for the appropriate power sources like you would with a stereo or a universal aftermarket harness. The factory tpi speed sensor is on the trans speedo connector. My tpi experience was with a manual, so not sure about other controls. Darbysan, is the el camino speed sensor you're referring to on the back of the speedo on some models? Mine was a factory diesel,it had one here that i used.:secret:

Darbysan, is the el camino speed sensor you're referring to on the back of the speedo on some models? Mine was a factory diesel,it had one here that i used.:secret:

Yes, the VSS gets it's signal from the speedo head, and feeds it into a VSS buffer in the IP harness. This is what I tapped into for mine as well.

I did this conversion last year. For the ECM, call Norm at Affordable Fuel Injection. They will send you an ECM and a chip that is designed of what you have (AC, VATS, VSS, Cam, etc). It was close enough to get me running well and on the road. I did fine tuning with TunerPro and a Moates chip burner from there. Best thing I ever did to the car!

Okay, well, I belive I have decided what I will do for the fuel pump scenario considering my budget and simplicity... I will be tapping 3 holes into the bottom of the tank, sealing all 3 90 degree fittings with sealant, using flex-F.I. tubing to route to X-fitting (3 coming from tank, one to pump), install F.I. fuel filter between fitting and pump, use a walbro or airtex in-line pump(mounting on frame (drivers side near floor pan... create a shroud to protect the pump and fittings from elements (making it waterproof as well). I will then use formed steel F.I. line from the pump to the engine bay until it gets to the drivers side where I'll use flex line... I'm looking for second opinions here, so input is good... i figured by doing this, I could avoid "baffling" the tank and keep my factory sending unit, could still keep my fuel door where it's at, the pump would be accessible for replacement (later), it'd be an affordable replacement next to like $300 for what I estimated for the tank setup... input is good here :)

On the brighter side, I found that all of my components have less than 40k, and all my injectors are still pretty fresh, and all the wiring is in great shape!!! I started cleaning out the manifolds and runners, looks a helluva lot better... the lower plenum and runners will be painted high temp gloss black with a polished aluminum upper plenum... everything else will be painted gloss black with LITTLE pieces here and there left with a polished look...

One last tech question, has anyone performed this swap before and kept their original "large cap" HEI distributor... I really don't want to go out and buy a whole new valvetrain setup just because of a softer distributor gear... or is the gear between the small cap distributor and the lare cap interchangeable??? Worse comes to worse, I can rewire the current large-cap to adapt to the '87 wiring harness... :nanawrench:

I think you are way overthinking the gas tank issue, and your plan with three holes in the bottom of the tank to me is a real safety issue. There are thousands of successful TPI swaps that have lived without the baffles. All you have to do is fill up when you get down to 1/4 tank. It's good practice anyway, since you don't want to suck up any sediment in the bottom of the tank that could clog your injectors. Mount your pump as planned. If you use the in-tank filter sock that is already there, you will not need a filter before the pump. Too much filtration before the pump causes stress on the pump, and early failure.

For the hard lines at the engine, I used Dorman 800-156 and 800-157. They have a connector on one end that mates up with the FI rail, and are 30" long. Gives plenty of length to route where you need it, with a short piece of FI hose on the end to connect to the stock lines. I used the stock Vent line for my return line, but you will need to do a little work at the sender. You will need to add a nipple to the sender for the return line You can get them in the help section at your auto parts store. Drill and solder in place- easy compared to the tank mods you were considering. Don't use the vent connection for the return- it has a restriction it it. Run Fuel Hose ( FI Not required) from the charcoal canister back to the tank for the vent.

You can use the large cap HEI- I did. However, my harness was from an '86, and the connectors were the same. You can take your connector from your stock harness and graft it into the '87 harness if that harness has the newer connectors. I know they make conversion connectors, but I think they are for going from old to new. Do some searching- might find one going the other way:???:

On your Polished Aluminum, I would coat it with a High Temp clear when you are finished. I didn't, and my polish job only lasted about a year.

i suppose you are indeed right, i drive long distances frequently however, thus the reason for less than 1/4 tank... i live in tucson so it was a decent concern... I'll more than likely though do what you suggested... does the fitting on the current sending unit (the factory one) have a nipple (slide on) or is it threaded? I don't want to unneccessarily want to drop the tank for a small piece of info... The engine lines i got with the intake are there already, all i need is the flex-hose... Thanks again for the info btw... you have been extremely helpful... I printed out your handbook and have begun to follow it religiously... Another question if you don't mind... what is the cheapest (yet effective) electric fan setup? I was considering going to a scrap yard and picking up a fairly good size electric fan out of a cadi or newer buick and making custom mounts and wiring... Any success with other options???

I've been running TPI in my daily driver for 2 years now with the original 22 gallon tank (no baffles). It has never sputtered once.

does the fitting on the current sending unit (the factory one) have a nipple (slide on) or is it threaded? ...what is the cheapest (yet effective) electric fan setup?

The tank sender has hose barb fittings. I just looked at my old sender, and it has a depression for a third line ( just need to drill the hole). It even has a bracket to hold the line already on the sender.

For electric fans, I used one from a Mark VIII. Taurus fans are good also, as are the Dodge Ramcharger fans. I'm starting to lean toward the ramcharger style fans, as it gives you at least one backup fan should one go out.

The engine lines i got with the intake are there already, all i need is the flex-hose...

Regardless of whether you have just the lines coming off the fuel rail, or additionally the two short flex lines, either one will require a line with a Saginaw Fitting to match up with it. That's what the Dorman lines do- transition from a Saginaw fitting to a hose barb type of connection.

i know this is a bit of a farfetched question and I know what I'm asking is normally frowned upon... Has anyone performed this swap using a full "rubber" F.I. hose setup? Or is there really no way around bent lines? I figured it'd be a little more simple to install and a helluva lot easier to work with... Any success stories? I have begun sifting through the old wiring harness today... holy ****... this is gonna be fun... I have to say, 2 hours just to find the beginning and end of like 10 wires... (checking condition along the way)

All you need is a short piece of FI hose from the sender to your pump, from your pump to the filter, and then from the filter to the stock 3/8" hard line(2-3' should be enough) At the engine side, a short piece of FI hose ( 2-3') to match up to the Dorman part number I previously gave you. The Dorman part will either fit the FI rail directly, or the F-body flex hoses. You do not want FI hose the entire way- too much of a safety concern, and too many points where wear / heat can get to the hose. Plus it's expensive. In the engine bay, you want to keep the Rubber hose away from the moving parts in front of the engine. using the Dorman lines lets you get far enough away for your connections to be safe.

You can use Fuel hose for the vent line, as there is no pressure in that line and no fuel- just vapors.

Okay, just to ensure I read that correctly... i will be keeping the stock sending unit, use the factory hard lines up to the pump, mate the line with the pump using FI hose, mate the pump and filter with FI hose, run the factory hard lines to the engine bay, use FI hose between factory lines and the dorman parts... for the return, use FI hose back to sender (drilling holes for fittings) and use the current vent port going back to charcoal canister... is this all correct??? I don't want to do this wrong...

Pretty close. Feed side description was correct. For the return line, you will use the existing steel Vent Line (Passenger Side), connected to the fuel rail with the Dorman repair line and then FI hose 5/16". Use 5/16" FI hose at the rear of the car to connect this line to the new return fitting you soldered into the sender ( Dorman 800-229). Use regular 5/16" Fuel hose to run from the Charcoal canister to the existing Vent port on the sender. On all the High Pressure FI rubber connections, I used two FI hose clamps for safety. Cheap insurance .

Hello again... after giving the tpi handbook another read, i found another option... that is to deliver fuel the same way as previously perscribed, whereas the return could possibly be routed to a "T-fitting" using FI hose before the pump... And I could (in theory) leave my vent line where it is currently located... Any input???

please excuse last response... i had meant to say leave delivery system as mentioned... use factory return line back to t-fitting before fuel pump, and use fuel hose for vent to canister...???

Hello again... after giving the tpi handbook another read, i found another option... that is to deliver fuel the same way as previously perscribed, whereas the return could possibly be routed to a "T-fitting" using FI hose before the pump... And I could (in theory) leave my vent line where it is currently located... Any input???

I had looked at doing this, but further research revealed that the fuel coming back to the tank is hot, and returning it to the tank helps to cool it. If that fuel goes back directly to the pump, via a tee fitting, the pump does not receive the cooling benefit of the normally cool fuel running through it, and could wind up failing prematurely due to heat. Normally, the pump is submerged in the tank, and receives it's cooling benefit from all the gas in the tank. Additionally, I think the pump would have to be designed with a check valve to prevent the pump from trying to pull the fuel from the return line vs from the tank.

Bottom line, proven methods work best. In the tank is best, In-line is OK as long as you keep it isolated from the frame, and keep it as cool as possible.

I am in the middle of setting up for the same carb to TPI swap. I did alot of homework and this thread has been really helpful. I found this on the JEGS website http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/65385/10002/-1 I think this may be worth a try for the return to the tank.

thanks tmoon66 for the link... I would be very interested in trying such a product... However I would like to know the success stories of it all... or if anyone's had any problems??? Darbysan... very true, I hadn't considered the fuel temp on the return to the pump, so again, thank you... I suppose however if the Moroso part would work it might be a little bit more simple and "leak free" than tapping a hole into the sender... at least I'd feel a little more sane about it... that is not insulting your knowledge or expertise, merely saying it would be much more convienient... I'm really just trying to avoid dropping the tank :p However, you claimed "isolating from the frame"... I was looking to fab a mounting bracket for the pump, one with a small insulated shelf/shield/waterproof wiring... would it be acceptable to mount to the frame if I went this route??? I wouldn't think this could pose a problem provided all electrical, fuel, and fab precautions are met... right??? has anyone done an inline pump set-up making a mounting bracket??? if so, dimensions and part numbers help!!! I have to say, I am learning GOBBS!!! of info from Darbysan and Jlcustomz... so thank you to both... keep the info coming, I'm about a month n a half from doing the swap, all I'm doing now is wiring, but I have other issues to address...

On the note of wiring, does anyone have a wiring diagram or a list of wires that can be cut from the '87 harness??? keeping all the smog, egr, and whatnot... I'm using the 165 ECM (So no VATS...i verified this) and any recommended factory elco circuits that utilize the ignition... such as the power wire to your distributor??? I'm trying to find a circuit that utilizes the full 12V potential which would definetly make wiring a helluva lot easier to me... I know I'll end up digging into the dash for the VSS terminal, however i don't want to strip the column out for access to an ignition wire.

And finally, keeping in mind this is the factory 305 with the iron heads... I looked up serp set-ups today and found EVERYTHING for $160... but didn't buy becasue I have found that (through others' research) that the serp set-up off a 80's 90's model Blazer with a 4.6L will apparently work??? Is this true??? And is it indeed a DIRECT bolt on??? Any experience with such a task??? This route seemed a LOT cheaper and a lot more easy to come by than finding a caprice or a camaro in a junk yark with all the parts stripped out of it... input is good here :nanawrench:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/65385/10002/-1[/url] I think this may be worth a try for the return to the tank.

I can see this working quite easily for a tank that has a rubber hose connector on the filler tube. For our trucks, the filler tube is all metal, and is not supported at the filler neck end. If you cut the metal neck and replace with this device, with two flexible couplings holding it in place, there would be some movement of the top of the filler neck. Might not fully support a fill hose inserted into it?
My second and biggest concern is how do you cut the neck while it is on the vehicle, full of gas. The neck will be full of gas fumes. Any spark will result in a Huge, Final Learning Curvehttp://elcaminocentral.com/images/smilies/new_smileyb.gif Also, how do you keep shavings out of the tank? Maybe you could use something like an exhaust pipe cutter, but I would still worry about a spark.
JMHO

t I was looking to fab a mounting bracket for the pump, one with a small insulated shelf/shield/waterproof wiring... would it be acceptable to mount to the frame if I went this route???

When I say Isolate, I mean from the vibration of the pump. Walbro makes a kit for installing their pumps.
http://www.aztpi.com/product.php?productid=50&cat=1&page=1

I would use something like this kit, along with a couple of rubber washers for extra vibration protection at the frame. You do not want to completly enclose the pump, as the air will help to cool it. If it is enclosed, heat will build up, and that is a killer

On the note of wiring, does anyone have a wiring diagram or a list of wires that can be cut from the '87 harness??? keeping all the smog, egr, and whatnot...

I've got a spreadsheet on my website that lists all of the changes you need to make. ( there are only about 8 changes necessary, and they are simple). Almost all of them, including the VSS, can be done in a white connector that is located beside the ECM. All you do is move some pins around in the connector for the most part.

As for the harness, remove the entire Engine harness from the passenger side of the vehicle. To do this, remove the passenger inner fender well, and take out the 1 or two screws holding the harness in place. Pull the harness out, and replace with the harness from the donor vehicle. You will have to make a small plate to hold the new harness in place. Seal it up well with RTV. Leave the small HVAC harness intact on the passenger side. On the drivers side, that entire harness remains intact. /I]

I'm using the 165 ECM (So no VATS...i verified this) and any recommended factory elco circuits that utilize the ignition... such as the power wire to your distributor???

[I]You will probably want a small Fuse Block to make things easy, and I used a relay as well. Run straight power from the battery through the relay, and use the distributor wire to trigger the relay on. This will give you a source of Ignition on power that can then be individually fused for theTwo injector wires, Fuel Pump and the ECM power on ( Fan as well). The ECM will also require Constant Power, and this can be supplied off the same direct power tap, but needs to be fused. I made this connection easy to get to under the hood, so that when I needed to disconnect the ECM ( like for clearing codes) it would be easy to do. The only new wires you need to run under the dash would be 1 to the ALDL connector for testing your fuel pump, and 1 from the White Connector we discussed above back to the fuel pump.

As for the 165 ECM, you still may want to run a later version of the software, that will remove the cold start injector ( ANYH is a good start).

And finally, keeping in mind this is the factory 305 with the iron heads... I looked up serp set-ups today and found EVERYTHING for $160... but didn't buy becasue I have found that (through others' research) that the serp set-up off a 80's 90's model Blazer with a 4.6L will apparently work??? Is this true??? And is it indeed a DIRECT bolt on??? Any experience with such a task??? This route seemed a LOT cheaper and a lot more easy to come by than finding a caprice or a camaro in a junk yark with all the parts stripped out of it... input is good here :nanawrench:

See my other answers above in Bold

While the Blazer serp setup will fit the 305, I think the truck setup has the Alternator higher, and the alternator and idler puller are closer together, causing a problem with the air intake on the TPI system. This is why the Camaro, Firebird or caprice seem to be the Serp of choice for TPI cars.
Also, the cost of the serp starts to add up, once you add in new water pump ( don't re-use an old pump- not worth the time needed to replace it later), new AC condenser, AC lines, belt, etc. I would also consider replacing the Power Steering pump as well, as it is much harder to get the pulley off once the system is installed. Same issue with the AC compressor. It get's expensive to replace everything because the Compressor goes out on you. On mine, I had the 140 amp alternator, and it would not swap over. I had to buy a new alternator as well. So for me, all I really needed for the serp setup was the two brackets and mounting bolts, and the idler pulley ( many replace this as well). The two brackets at a pick and pull should cost about $15 each ( wish I had gone this route myself!).

Personally, I would do the TPI install first and get everything running as you like, and then do the Serp install as a second project later.

Well, got some pics of my current set-up!!! Sorry about the lighting... but the next pics will come when it's on the car!!!

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263350_10150280434919444_716834443_7521773_7301186 _n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292622_10150280432294444_716834443_7521753_3812588 _n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292650_10150280296109444_716834443_7520411_5434249 _n.jpg

IF you can track down a "Vette" distributor cover, they are aluminum and can be polished to match the plenum. You might want to consider highlighting you polish job with some red or other color in the valleys on the plenum.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/darbysan/CIMG2728.jpg

thanks... the details im still not sure what id like to do... im going to wait until its on the car for that... your setup though is CLEAN!!! great work!!!

Alrighty... I'm about a month out from doing the swap at this point... Ran into a few snags thus far, however I have some awesome news and a few questions if anyone can answer them... Good news is that I finished the wiring harness!!! Found out where all the wires I got need to go for now... All I need is a universal fuse block and a relay for all my ignition powered stuff... another bonus is that thanks to a few different sources (one being darbysan) All the electrical stuff is good to go! All of my actual F.I. stuff is present and accounted for so its ready to get bolted on!!! I only need two items at this point... the in-line fuel pump/filter set-up and all related hoses/wires/etc... and a dual electric fan set-up... the Camaro this harness came out of had two so why not utilize the extra cooling??? lol. Okay to the much feared questions...as if I haven't asked enough... I just need clarification is all...

1. I will be using either the Walbro in-line pump or the Airtex E2000... my question is... will the two-wire connector coming off the harness suffice to power the pump? Does it need an extra fuse? And can somebody please (once and for all) clarify the routing of my supply/return/vent??? I know I can use my factory supply line with F.I. hose for supply, I can use my factory vent line as a return to the tank with proper provisions to remove the "restriction" in the line, and I will be modifying the sender with another fitting for a vent (using standard fuel hose) and back to the canister... Does this sound correct???

2. Has anyone mounted their ECM under the hood or somewhere you dont have to pull off the fender well??? I want to avoid doing this if so and will make a sealed unit for the ECM if needs be... I'd prefer under hood either way... Should simplfy the wiring process too... at least I'd think?

3. I will be KEEPING the 9th injector, for use in the future if I ever move to a colder climate, however this is the only wiring query I've had yet... How do you wire the circuits, I have a purple wire coming off the back-side of the ECM with no where to go??? Does this tie into the "Start" only stage of the ignition circuit? or where does it go???? HELP!!!

4. What kind of air-filter would anyone suggest??? I'm quite particular to the K&N filters, however I'm not sure what would fit on this MAF piping??? Anyone have a part number??? BTW, I would LIKE to do a Cold Air Intake pipe to the driver's side of the engine bay... anyone know of any kits that would work???

I'm getting excited for this swap and it's taking a LOT of control to just not tackle it and starting ripping all the old carb stuff out... I know I drove from Tucson to Phoenix in this thing on monday and pulled 23MPG doin 70MPH down the freeway!!! What's it like with F.I.??? I've heard rumors from Camaro/Firebird owners as long as you keep your foot out, you can get up to 27-30MPG freeway???Fact/fiction??? My deadline to get this finished now is early December, so I'm trying to pace myself financially... Still on budget... lol. Thanks again everyone!!!

also one last EXTREMELY critical question... I have the factory speedo in the Elco right now and will EVENTUALLY go to the dakota digital readout... I have a 700r4 currently in the car right now which is what the donor car came with. So my question is, is there any special wiring for the VSS buffer side of the ECM? There is only one electronic plug going to the trans right now and has a tan and black wire routed back to the factory carb harness... I also know on my TPI harness there is a 4 prong connector that goes to the trans which is what I'm ASSUMING I'll be using... What I'm mainly concerned with is how the ECM will read speed and translate that to the correct air/fuel ratio... is there a special adapter available for this? do I need to rework the back of the factory speedometer? Does my factory speedo come with a VSS buffer connection??? And can I run the car WITHOUT the VSS stuff plugged in until I get the Dakota set-up??? I'm lost on this one and SERIOUSLY NEED HELP!!!

1. I will be using either the Walbro in-line pump or the Airtex E2000... my question is... will the two-wire connector coming off the harness suffice to power the pump? Does it need an extra fuse? And can somebody please (once and for all) clarify the routing of my supply/return/vent??? I know I can use my factory supply line with F.I. hose for supply, I can use my factory vent line as a return to the tank with proper provisions to remove the "restriction" in the line, and I will be modifying the sender with another fitting for a vent (using standard fuel hose) and back to the canister... Does this sound correct???

2. Has anyone mounted their ECM under the hood or somewhere you dont have to pull off the fender well??? I want to avoid doing this if so and will make a sealed unit for the ECM if needs be... I'd prefer under hood either way... Should simplfy the wiring process too... at least I'd think?

3. I will be KEEPING the 9th injector, for use in the future if I ever move to a colder climate, however this is the only wiring query I've had yet... How do you wire the circuits, I have a purple wire coming off the back-side of the ECM with no where to go??? Does this tie into the "Start" only stage of the ignition circuit? or where does it go???? HELP!!!

4. What kind of air-filter would anyone suggest??? I'm quite particular to the K&N filters, however I'm not sure what would fit on this MAF piping??? Anyone have a part number??? BTW, I would LIKE to do a Cold Air Intake pipe to the driver's side of the engine bay... anyone know of any kits that would work???

1) Not sure what two wire connector you have. There should be a brown wire coming from the Instrument Panel Connector (Pin "D") back to the pump. Ground can be found anywhere near the pump, such as the frame. Your fuel line routing is correct.

2) Easier to wire the ECM in the cab. Connection to the IP harness is easier. Pulling the inner fender well is not hard, and will be a cleaner install.

3) For the 9th injector, there is a separate Temp Sensor in the front of the intake. Pin "R" on the IP connector is for the power input for the injector ( PPL/WHT). Should be a 3 amp fused circuit. Pin "P" is purple, and is the TCC wire to the brake switch.

If you change the PROM to the one I have listed on my site, it does away with the 9th injector, and instead uses all 8 injectors for cold start. The cold start injector is problematic, leaks, cannot be replaced when they go bad, and basically just shoots a lot of fuel into the plenum. Think about this one.

4) Air intake is always a problem. I solved this with an intake box from a Mercury Marauder ( T-bird is the same box). I swapped the battery to the drivers side ( Easy- battery box bolts are the same either side). The Marauder box has a hole in the bottom for intake, so I cut a hole in the inner fender well and voila- cold air intake from the underside of the fender. Getting an intake to the driver's side is more difficult, because of the radiator hose and AC compressor. Too much stuff in the way.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/darbysan/CIMG2729.jpg

HTH

also one last EXTREMELY critical question... I have the factory speedo in the Elco right now and will EVENTUALLY go to the dakota digital readout... I have a 700r4 currently in the car right now which is what the donor car came with. So my question is, is there any special wiring for the VSS buffer side of the ECM? There is only one electronic plug going to the trans right now and has a tan and black wire routed back to the factory carb harness... I also know on my TPI harness there is a 4 prong connector that goes to the trans which is what I'm ASSUMING I'll be using... What I'm mainly concerned with is how the ECM will read speed and translate that to the correct air/fuel ratio... is there a special adapter available for this? do I need to rework the back of the factory speedometer? Does my factory speedo come with a VSS buffer connection??? And can I run the car WITHOUT the VSS stuff plugged in until I get the Dakota set-up??? I'm lost on this one and SERIOUSLY NEED HELP!!!

Pin "K" on the IP connector is for the VSS. You have VSS in the car now, so this pin is correct and will pick up the VSS signal from the speedo buffer.

The 4-pin connector for the trans is primarily for TCC lockup function, and to report 4th gear engagement, etc back to the ECM. You should be good to go, but the pin's might need to be swapped. Look at the pins in your current connector and check wire color.

If you are still looking for a TPI harness. I have an old ACCEL Gen 6 harness and ECM that can be programed. It was working great when i removed it form the car about a year ago. I was going to put it on EBAY but have not got around to it. It has the instuctions and programming software. I was running a 350 with eldebrock heads and a ZZ4 cam. It ran geat.

Thank you but I will be using the factory style harness due to emissions.
Darbysan, do you have a wiring diagram available for the IP harness with wire colors I could go off of? I'm really kinda stuck on the whole pin problem... :neutral:

Also, found this yesterday for a VSS sending unit... could it work??? and is this what I need???

http://howellefi.com/vehicle-speed-sensor-all-tbi-and-1985-89-tpi.html

Darbysan, do you have a wiring diagram available for the IP harness with wire colors I could go off of?
Also, found this yesterday for a VSS sending unit... could it work??? and is this what I need???

I have a hand written wiring diagram. I'll try and clean it up and publish it later today. You do not need the adapter for VSS. Your car already has VSS installed in the Speedo, and when you connect your IP harness it will be automatically taken care of.

I checked my info, and I already have the pin-outs for Connector 207 ( Instrument Panel to ECM Connector), including wiring colors, on my website under Wiring_pins.xls. The wire colors and pins for the G-body are on the left, and the wire color for the TPI ECM Side of the connector is on the right side.

THANK YOU YET AGAIN!!! Will look at diagram later, this computer wont let me... lol. Anywho, I'm going up to Pheonix to get one of my last two major pieces on Saturday, my dual-electric fan set-up!!! $60 on craigslist with a newer radiator!!! not bad I think... Back to the TPI system however, I'm still trying to find a clever way to get fuel up to the pump (I will be running an in-line). Would one of the little Holley 6-10psi pumps(Used inline with the actual fuel pump) help in delivering fuel to the pump??? They're all over craigslist for like $40 and as long as it "sucks" fuel and is not strictly a "pusher" it should be fine??? right? Maybe use this little pump as a "primer" for the actual pump... Is this a good idea to preserve the life of the pump??? just a thought that could help... any input is good... THANKS!

Would one of the little Holley 6-10psi pumps(Used inline with the actual fuel pump) help in delivering fuel to the pump???

I would not mount a second pump outside the tank. Ford uses the two pump idea in their trucks, but the small pusher pump is mounted in the tank. Go figure. Many folks have just used the in line pump, pulling through the stock sender unit, with no issues. Keep it simple, and you shouldn't have any issues.

That's exactly what I planned on... heard of someone else doing it and been running the same pump now for 10 years... but that was on a car that was seldom driven... Thanks again for the wisdom...lol.

YAY!!!
I just ordered my fuel pump, the Walbro GSL392 with the mounting brackets and whatnot, I'm going to go get my fans tomorrow in pheonix, now I have one question...

Are there any CHEAP yet effective in-line fuel filter recommendations??? I've found a few for like $50 but I think I've seen cheaper... It has to be able to tolerate at least 60 psi of pressure and filter out like 80 microns... so any input is good... Anyone had any luck with their own in-line filters??? will be purchasing today... Should be able to start TPI swap by the beginning of next month!!! Hopefully it doesn't take any longer than three days otherwise I'm screwed... :/ I'll have a few extra hands, but if anyone is near Tucson and wants to help, I'll be doing it all on Davis Monthan Air Force bases car shop with all the tools you could think of, and I'll treat whomever to lunch and a tour of the Pima Air and Space Museum... maybe some ber... lol. If interested send me a PM... Theres no one here on this base with the cahones to help out with this swap and a helping hand would be nice... its also a good opportunity to see Tucson...

Are there any CHEAP yet effective in-line fuel filter recommendations???.

I'm using Fram G3870. Has 3/8 Barb Fittings on both ends. Was originally for Corvette.

Nice thread; covered a lot of good ground here. :)

Okay, well, my guy in Pheonix flaked on me, so I simply went out and paid the $65 for the Hayden LARGE single fan with a warantee... Sounded better than a dual electric set up thats 24 years old... Anywho, I FINISHED the harness after almost 2 months of rewire and painstaking research. I do have one question... I have all the relays and whatnot already, but when I got to the EGR side of things I noticed I didn't have a EGR Solenoid... problem??? Are there any other vehicles out there that run the same Solenoid set up... cuz all the F-bodies here in tucson have been STRIPPED!!!

Because the car I got this TPI stuff from ran the small cap HEI distributor, I have to go out tomorrow and buy an external coil and whatnot which brings me to another question. Would it be acceptable to use the IGN terminal on the fuse block to power the ECM, dist coil power wire, and my INJ 1 and 2 fuses??? Figured if I used that as a power source, I could run about a 12 gauge wire from that to a 4 terminal fuse block for power to those circuits??? Does this sound good??? I'm going for simplicity and ease of install here and trying to save money here... Figured by doing this as well, I can probably make it easier for me to change out fuses later if needed... Input here is much appreciated!!

Are there any other vehicles out there that run the same Solenoid set up...

Because the car I got this TPI stuff from ran the small cap HEI distributor, I have to go out tomorrow and buy an external coil and whatnot which brings me to another question. Would it be acceptable to use the IGN terminal on the fuse block to power the ECM, dist coil power wire, and my INJ 1 and 2 fuses??? Figured if I used that as a power source, I could run about a 12 gauge wire from that to a 4 terminal fuse block for power to those circuits??? Does this sound good???

I think you can use the same EGR solenoid off your stock vehicle. May have to play with the mounting a bit, but the solenoid functions the same.

For the Coil, I would use the Bat line from the old distributor- that's what it is for- to power the coil. Depending on which Terminal you use on the fuse box for your IGN source, most of them run off the Gauge fuse, which is 20 amp. The FI fuses are 10 amp each, so you'll be getting close to maxing out the gauge fuse. Also, the ECM requires both switched and constant power. The connection under the hood should be constant power. It provides power not only for the ECM, but for the Fuel Pump Relay and MAF burn off Relay, as well as the Oip Pressure/Fuel Pump switch. The switched power for the ECM should come through the IP harness connector, Pins F and G.

I think you might be OK with doing the FI injectors from the Fuse panel as suggested, but if they pull too much power you will blow the gauge fuse and loose both sides of the injectors, plus the gauges. I wouldn't do it.

I wired mine up under the hood, since I had extra fuses there. I used a hot wire from the starter, going through a standard auto relay, to power the switched fuse panel. I tapped into the distributor battery wire to provide the trigger voltage for the relay( used the relay as a switch to turn the power on for the switched fuse panel). I fused the hot wire from the battery with a maxi fuse ( 30 amp, 8 gauge wire). I tapped into this hot wire after the fuse to power the ECM constant voltage. Put a 20 amp fuse in this circuit. Makes a convenient place to pull the fuse when you want to erase your Check Engine Light codes. You can do all of this under the dash, but you will have to run a couple of lines out to the engine bay.

Confusing I know, but call if you have questions. I sent you my phone number via PM.

Thanks again Darbysan,
So for clarification... I will be retaining my Batt wire from the old harness to distributor and using that as the (+) for the new coil, the ground will be to the frame... For the INJ 1 and 2 fuses I will be installing a small fuse block under the dash (wires from harness=positve side of terminal/negative side=ground?). As for the ECM, i would like to use my Elco fuse block ECM location if possible for the switched power, and will install a 30 AMP inline fuse between the side of the harness with the MAF connector/fans/etc... to the battery (+) terminal?

On the note of the EGR solenoid, the previous owner took it off and its long gone. Any other vehicles that use this same solenoid??? I'm researching part numbers right now trying to find a new one... and finally does anyone have a vacuum diagram for the TPI set-up... to include the purge canister, and EGR stuff?

So for clarification... I will be retaining my Batt wire from the old harness to distributor and using that as the (+) for the new coil, the ground will be to the frame... For the INJ 1 and 2 fuses I will be installing a small fuse block under the dash (wires from harness=positve side of terminal/negative side=ground?). As for the ECM, i would like to use my Elco fuse block ECM location if possible for the switched power, and will install a 30 AMP inline fuse between the side of the harness with the MAF connector/fans/etc... to the battery (+) terminal?

On the note of the EGR solenoid, the previous owner took it off and its long gone. Any other vehicles that use this same solenoid??? I'm researching part numbers right now trying to find a new one... and finally does anyone have a vacuum diagram for the TPI set-up... to include the purge canister, and EGR stuff?

Correct on the Coil Power. For the Inj Fuses, run the hot side of the power from the fuses to the small 6 conductor plug that is associated with the ECM harness. Pin A is inj2, and is a Pink/Blk wire. Pin D is for Inj1, and is Pink. The ground side is taken care of by the ECM ( ECM gounds the injector to fire them).

For the Switched power, if you follow my wiring instructions for the Instrument panel connector, it will be taken care of. You will need two separate Switched power sources, and both of them are in that connector ( Pin's F and G).

The EGR solenoid is pretty common on most '80's GM cars. It will have a two prong connection, and two vacuum hose connections ( One in, One out). There is also a port on the switch for clean air to filter in- usually the small foam filter is gone, but no worries. The solenoid can be mounted on the firewall, so the mount is not important. If you really get stuck for this, let me know. I've got my old one somewhere.

I'll post up a vacuum diagram on my website.

Darbysan,
Thanks for the info... Okay, I know I have a connector coming off my harness with 3 wires (one pnk one blk/pnk and one brn) I know the pnk and pnk/blk wires are for the injectors and need fuses, so my main question is, do I go wire-fuse-ground, or wire-fuse-12v power??? For the switched power sources, could I use the IGN terminal off the fuse block as stated earlier?

On the note of the EGR solenoid, I would be interested in the one you got, I'll shoot you a PM with my number if you can find it and maybe we could meet up Elcos somewhere and I could pay you for the parts... Fedex works too lol.

Darbysan,
Thanks for the info... Okay, I know I have a connector coming off my harness with 3 wires (one pnk one blk/pnk and one brn) I know the pnk and pnk/blk wires are for the injectors and need fuses, so my main question is, do I go wire-fuse-ground, or wire-fuse-12v power??? For the switched power sources, could I use the IGN terminal off the fuse block as stated earlier?

You want 12 V power going to the two Pink and Pink/blk wires. You can use the IGN off the fuse block, but just watch out for blown fuses ( Gauge Fuse)

I'll have to look for the EGR solenoid tomorrow afternoon. I'll let you know if I find it. Lots of them on Ebay. Surprised you can't find one locally.

Just to clarify, for the switched power for the Injectors, you can use the IGN terminal off the fuse panel. For the switched power for the ECM, follow my instructions and notes on TPIWIRING.XLS spreadsheet on my website.

Awesome... thank you very much. I do (yet again) have a question... Looking at the current carb harness, I was looking at the side involved with the heater/ac controls under the hood and was curious if this is a bothersome portion of the re-wire??? I know the HIGH setting for the blower motor needs 12V from the alternator/battery/etc... and could pose a problem if it does in deed tie into the control harness... I'm finding a lot of this forum VERY helpful, and I have learned a lot... At this point I'm not too incredibly concerned with the "bolt-on" items such as the plenum/rails/fuel pump/ etc... I'm just a little shady on the wiring of things... I seriously do NOT want to chase electrical grimlins for hours... I'm still in a time pinch and I've almost got ALL my parts ready to go... I just ordered the coil, bracket for the coil, fuel filter, TPI gasket set, block-off plate, and a new knock sensor off amazon for $147... hopefully I'll have this thing in shop by Oct 11th getting everything put on... CROSS YOUR FINGERS!!!

THE HVAC harness is separate from the engine harness. You should have no issues.

THANKS!!!:nanawrench: Well, with all the pieces coming together, my confidence is building so I'm hoping for the best here... I may end up giving you a call however once I actually start pulling parts if I run into a strange problem...

Okay everyone, yet another awesome question... I want to run the small cap distributor as stated earlier and I want to clarify something, pretty important... I know the large cap dist. can work however with certain wiring modifications but I want to use the small cap for simlicity of wiring, cleaner install, and be able to isolate ignition problems to coil or dist... I also know the '87 tpi 305 ran a roller cam with the small dist. and the 82 305 carb ran a hydraulic cam... so my question is if the gear on the hyd. cam will be compatible with the gear on the small cap dist??? I have both distributors so i can change gears if needed... also i need to know now if i need a new dist. gear for the small cap... I was told by a guy here in tucson at a local speed shop that the gear on the small cap will work with the hyd cam... true/false??? PLEASE HELP!!!

Hello again ECC,
If anyone wouldn't mind helping me out with the question above... that'd be EXTREMELY helpful... :) On the brighter side of things however I just ordered a refurbished set of Bosch injectors from fuelinjectorconnection for $140 with shipping!!! Old ones were no bueno and had some very...uh...creative fixes applied to them... Just painted the fuel rails, air piping and the dist cover... ITS ALL COMING TOGETHER!!!

Not absolutely sure about the dist gear. I'm pretty sure they are different shaft sizes from the large and small cap. The small cap likely has a hardened gear. If it was me, I would want a softer gear, so the sacrificial part would be the replaceable gear on the dist, not the cam gear.

Darbysan,
Thanks again, I did dig into a little more researching though and found many have used the small cap (providing all wiring is done correctly) with little to no reprocution... Hopefully that is the case for me. On the note however of the EGR solenoid I found the one that goes to the TPI setup yesterday and its in AWESOME shape... Thank you for your time either way for looking.

Okay, here's a general F.I. question for anyone with an answer. I got my TPI setup all ready to go, new injectors and a freshened up fuel rail... HOWEVER, I only have 6 of the 8 injector retainer clips... My main question is if i absolutely NEED these clips??? I know 2 injectors never had the clips with no reported leaks so do i NEED them??? And 2nd question, does anyone know where to get new ones if not??? I want to start putting the manifold stuff back together but I can't before knowing if i NEED the clips of not... Any help here would be greatly appreciated... Thank you.

Well... I don't think GM would have gone to the trouble if they weren't needed... but they could only be needed because of factory assembly. Who knows... the o-rings can be damaged if forced while misaligned, but that's the only reason I could think of. I had a couple missing. I had to go back and reclean two of the injectors once I had mine running. I put the two missing clips on. No difference either way as far as I could tell.

C#

I think C# is right on. Be very careful when you assemble, make sure those injectors "seat" when you install the fuel rail, and you should be OK. I needed a couple of extra clips, and got them from FIS when I got my rebuilt injectors.

Note for assembly. It seems to me that there was some interference fit between the intake head bolts and either the fuel rail or the runner plenum bolts. IIRC, I had to install the intake first, then install the rails and runners. I don't think it can be installed as an assembly. I even seem to remember some problems that required me to "loosen" the fuel rail up to get some bolts tightened. I think they were some of the lower plenum to runner bolts.

82 Elco after reading some of this thread it is becoming obvious that you are about to be over whelmed with info on TPI fuel injection. Please do yourself a favor and go to this web site study it and save it for future reference take all the other advice and then decide which way works best for you. As others have said before you buy a lot of other stuff figure out your true plan and work to it. I do think your goal of $700. is pretty low but you can probably do it for about $1200. I've read a number of suggestions in the thread which you could do without such as needing a new tank if you go with extrenal pump you will not need a new tank. Also you can run a TPI with out the electric fans I have been for five years now. There is still plenty of room for the stock fan with the right filter. I suggest you go with the speed density much simpler to manage. At any rate please check this site and do what works best for you and your intentions. I will tell you once you go EFI you will not go back it is worth every bit of the time and effort. Harald K http://chevythunder.com/

Yes... Harold is right. You are either building a hot rod or a resto mod... and hot rodders make stuff work that costs little to nothing and take pride in their ingenuity (rightly so). OTOH, if you want a dependable vehicle that gets you to the hospital when the wife is about to deliver, make sure you have put plenty of test miles on your hot rod ingenuity. I hot rodded my power steering hose. Now I'm going to go get a custom one made after towing my elky 20 miles in heavy traffic. You can't stop at Advance Auto on a Sunday and get much of what you are going to use for your 'custom' work (radiator hoses come to mind right away). I was hot, that's for sure, but I'm not sure if I was rodding.

C#

Well, After a lot of hard thought and pondering abouthow i could make this all work, I decided to make my own F.I. retainers... Easier than spending 3 hours in a junk yard and cheaper than paying $0.30 each then $5 for shipping... Some sheet metal guys here on base had some extra stainless sitting around and they let me have a small sliver of it... The two on the left are the original factory style ones and the two on the right are the ones I made... Still got to trim up some edges but other than that they should work??? :nanawrench:http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/311337_10150328645869444_716834443_7860966_2025472 000_n.jpg

Okay, very interesting problem I ran into... I thought I purchased the correct coil for the small cap HEI dist. but after careful research I found that I WILL be keeping my original Large cap for use with the TPI harness. So my question is... is there anything special regarding wiring with transferring from small cap to large on the harness??? I looked at wiring diagrams and the wiring colors between the large cap and the TPI harness are the same... Do i simply match the wire colors between the large cap and the new harness??? or will there be wiring issues with the older ignition control module??? HELP!!!!

Do i simply match the wire colors between the large cap and the new harness??? or will there be wiring issues with the older ignition control module??? HELP!!!!

Yes, just match up the wire colors. Should be good to go.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! by the way, those clips I made worked amazingly well!!! Well, only 2 weeks until the swap and I'm fairly sure now all my ducks are in a row. Provided I did all my wiring research correctly, it should HOPEFULLY fire up within the first few attempts... we'll see...

How wonderful Youth is. I remember when I used to be able to get 6 or 7 things done in an hour. Now, it takes me an hour to figure out what I was supposed to have done in that hour. Good luck on your install, and I hope it all goes well for you.

Well, for anyone who's interested, the swap starts Tuesday and I'm excited as ever! I know I'm probably adding a little more work for myself here but I ran into a small snag with an AMAZING fix. The alternator bracket on my current setup is no good due to mounting bracket hole locations and thus is trash. The new TPI bracket I thought would work...until I found out that its for a left mounted alternator... so thus, it too is trash (well spare parts...)... So in pondering what to do about all this I found a full serpentine setup from a guy down here for $125. A/C compressor's shot but the pulley still turns, alt is good, p/s pumps good, reverse flow water pump thats newer, and smog pump needs to be freed up a lil... so other than that...fully fuctional serp set up for $125. Going to clean it all up and paint it on saturday, install saturday and sunday. Test drive with it on monday and drain out some gas, and pull into the shop on tues for the swap!!! It's a good week...:nanawrench:

FWIW, my serp AIR pump was frozen as well. I took my old pump, and IIRC just replaced the back of the working pump with the Serp part, allowing the pipes to clear the AC compressor. I had to go to the pick and pull and find a control unit, as they are different for the serp setup AIR pump.

I'll probably find a special little spot for the control valves and make a bracket for them, until then, I'm just going to try to install it all and get it running for Tuesday. This serp set up has the left mounted alt and right A/C compressor. So i'll have a little rewire for now and some plumbing for the p/s pump... more to come

Is it a Serp from a TPI car? Many of the serp setups will not work with TPI because the Idler Pulley is in the way of the Throttle Body. Just something else to check.

He claimed it was from an F-body camaro/firebird w/ F.I. and judging by the pictures it looks like I'll have plenty of clearance for the throttle body. It looks like a setup from maybe an 88 or 89 F-body... I know I will be going to pick it up and look at it on saturday so more to come along the lines of an install then... I am happy I'm getting the serp and TPI in the same week though... should be pretty busy this week and in the end AMAZING!

Well, for those whom are interested, the serp setup turned out pretty amazing! Found out it came off an 88 firebird based on some of the parts I had to get for it all. There was however one small downfall to both the setup and the unit I bought. The unit I bought had a bad alternator, luckily it was pretty cheap and the new alt is 100 amp vs the factory 70... so it should support the TPI a little better. However the other purchase downfall was that the power steering pulley was damaged during engine removal, but pep boys had a new serp pulley for only $15. Anyways, for anyone else taking a serp setup off an 88 or 89 f-body, know that the bracket that supports the a/c compressor and smog pump will not ENTIRELY bolt onto the factory pre-87 heads, the heads are missing 1 mounting bolt hole... I just tightened the rest well with a little extra thread locker... Overall though, I got it started with the serp stuff and it simply ran smoother and the transition of power seemed TONS smoother... also somehow made for easier starting. Anywho, the TPI stuff starts tomorrow... Will keep everyone posted!

Alright, so here's the skinny. After a week of extensive labor, a LOT of cash, and hours in the shop. This 82 Elco is now fuel injected!!!! However I ran into a few bumps along the way and hope this helps anyone else doing this swap. On day 1 I dropped the tank, pulled the sending unit, and tapped in a hole for the vent, used a 90 deg. fitting which worked perfect. double clamped all my lines and plumbed in the fuel filter and pump (flaring the hard lines along the way and filing them down. I also pulled off the old carb and intake. Day 2 was a little chaotic in that it took me about 30 shots to put on the lower plenum because the setup is off an 87 and its now on pre-87 heads (Make note to bore out the holes on the intake, use a special aluminum rotary tool or be prepared to use a file for a few hours.) Once the lower plenum was on, everything else was wired and put into place and set in. Day 3 was worse than day two for a few reasons. I had everything wired and plumbed about half way through the day and finally got it ready to start. Started RIGHT UP first crank, however a water jacket was leaking through the manifold...meaning... yes... it all came back off... Resealed everything back up, and put it all back together... Chaotic in that I only had 12 hours at this point to get this thing out of the shop. Day 4 was the worst in that everything was ready to fire up, however when I did get to the point of starting it, the engine would LOCK UP... no good... After hours of trying to find out why, I discovered the fuel pressure regulator diaphram failed injecting GOBBS of fuel into the #6 and 8 runner pipes through the vacuum line. This caused the crank case to fill with gasoline and my exhaust to leak gas... very dangerous... drained the oil and replaced filter and oil. Got the car pushed out on day 4, went back on day 5 with my own tools and a new regulator (BTW $108 at Pep boys... do not forget the T10 TAMPER PROOF bit to remove the regulator cover) Put some more gas in the tank and re-primed the pump, after this, it fired up but with difficulty. The old bad diaphram permitted more fuel allowing the ECM to let it run smooth, however now that it became regulated and the system hadn't ran correctly in over 2 years, on a different engine at that, the ECM had to somewhat "tune itself" to it's sweet spot... This took some time, but eventually stabilized its own idle and timing. I was able to drive it home, but my electric fan failed and had to stop continuously to let it cool down. Yesterday was my last "big move" in that I actually bought a set of proper gauges and a dual fan set up (one light weight 8" fan pushing through the A/C condenser, and one HUGE 16" super duty puller on the back of the radiator) I drove it around about 15 miles after this, at first pampering it (it only got up to 180 degrees running like this) and after some severe abuse only got up to about 210... (Keeping in mind I still haven't flushed the cooling system and my water is currently BROWN and somewhat rustic... Next weekend I will be flushing the system a few times, the filling up with some prestone and some Purple Ice to help it run cooler... I was going to drive it to work tonight to put together the dash panels again, however the return line ruptured right next to my house... Know this, when the guys at Autozone tell you the hose the sell "is fuel injection hose, it just doesn't have the stamp." slap them in the face and go somewhere else... They gave me regular fuel hose for my return right by the manifold, which was fine up until it warmed up... I'm just happy I noticed it when I was at a stop and didn't notice a HUGE fire at a stop light... I will fix the line in the morning and keep driving it and will keep everyone posted as to how it's doing and any problems/solutions... Darbysan... thank you yet again for all the help... I am STRONGLY pleased with the reults of the TPI system and it is AMAZING how torquey this thing is now... :nanawrench::nanawrench::nanawrench::nanawrench::n anawrench:

Glad to hear it's coming together. Always a bummer to find used parts are bad, especially when you have to take everything apart to replace them.

Well, got the cooling system completely flushed and put in 2 bottles of Royal Purple Ice and it runs cool as could be (around 170) in park, however it wasn't until it got up to 220 today that I discovered my problem... my large 16" fan's blade was installed backwards from the manufacturer, so I turned it around in the beginning making it a pusher... no good... So now I'm about to flip it again and make it a puller... should see a pretty good difference, that fan can move some air like none other... More to come, I am still interested however in getting the computer PROMed and tuned, but have no idea where to go right now... It wont be for awhile, right now it's driveable and makes AWESOME power, but I KNOW i could squeeze out a lil more with the proper tune... any recommendations... I don't have the stuff to use tunerpro on my laptop, but i am willing to pay to have it done correctly...

Jeremy, I just got thru reading your build thread. Glad to see you got it going and and nice job documenting the project, I'm sure it will help some other folks down the road.

For those who may be interested, I'm the guy he picked up the belt set up from (gota love Craigslist LOL). Jeremy drove his El Camino down to pick it up and he has a very nice little truck that he has/is doing some very first rate work on.

Thanks Mike, and again, thanks for the serp stuff... It definetly completed the full TPI look and provided a NOTICEABLE change in both driveability and smooth idling. I do hope this thread helps anyone else out there doing this kind of swap. My end cost after ALL the new parts and so on was around $1300... not too bad for the noticeable change and having an Elco sounding like an IROC... lol. Thanks again to everyone who has helped

I am still interested however in getting the computer PROMed and tuned, but have no idea where to go right now... It wont be for awhile, right now it's driveable and makes AWESOME power, but I KNOW i could squeeze out a lil more with the proper tune... any recommendations... I don't have the stuff to use tunerpro on my laptop, but i am willing to pay to have it done correctly...

If it's running good, then the tune has to be pretty close. Fine tuning is very hard to do by long distance. It's more of a trial and error approach, since you are making pretty small changes. It's not that hard to do, but you will need some equipment- Laptop, ALDL cable, and a prom burner, along with Tunerpro RT. For the money you would pay to have someone else do your tune, you can pick up these parts ( often can find used on Ebay or at ThridGen.org). For now, I would just run it and enjoy, and look at tuning as a future project once you get tired of all the other stuff you want to do!

OKAY NOW I NEED HELP!!! Took the Elco out for a drive yesterday and was running pretty smooth until we got to the middle of town and all the sudden it just shut off (after just accelerating fairly rapidly)... I got under the dash, checked the fuel pump fuse (was good, but back connector of new fuse block was loose, adjusted and car started back up). After this I drove it back home and all seemed well. I got ready to go to work this morning, car started up fine, and got about a mile away from home and hit a stop light, left the stop light pretty quick and got up to about 45mph and all the sudden the fuel pump went black and turned off. Pulled over, checked my connection on the fuse block (good), hotwired the fuel pump to the battery (turned on, but I accidentally fried the small piece of extender wire I was using), and ruled out possible problems either to faulty wiring (short somewhere in the process of installing fuel pump) or bad fuel pump relay (did not replace at time of swap) Ignition is good, and everything else works, but as it stands right now, my Elco is on the side of the road and I'm at work... Some feed-back would help ALOT here, however if none is given I planned on going to Pepboys and picking up a relay and some wire and trying to fix it on the side of the road (in safe place so its alright). If I can get it to fire up i will be running it to a shop later to read the ECM to check and diagnose any problems (still don't know if im throwing codes or not :dontknow:) HELP!!! Thank you

Ok, so the wiring back to the pump seems OK. A couple of things to check. 1) Power to the ECM. If the power to the ECM cuts out, everything shuts off. 2) Grounds to the ECM- same problem. 3) Check to be sure that the ECM cables are firmly plugged in. -4) You can swap the MAF burnoff relay with the FP relay to test the relays. 5) Oil Pressure switch ( behind dist) is designed to cut off fuel if no OP. If you have a bad connection there, or a bad switch, it could cut the FP off.

Since it was running OK, I would lean toward a connection issue ( 1,2 or 3 above).

Did you wire up the ALDL plug per my wiring instructions? If so, you can pull your own codes using a paperclip. Just ground the two top right pins, and the SES light will flash the codes when you turn the key to on. If you didn't wire this up, then the shop will not be able to pull the codes anyway.

Okay, updated news to this problem... Went to Pepboys this morning after work, picked up a new Fuel Pump relay and some new wires just in case, went back put in the new relays and rewired the pump (found a potential short anyways). Tried to start it up and nothin... no power to the pump. Looked at a wiring diagram and I had to be reminded about the inline fuse providing constant power to the ECM... it blew (I wanna say it was a 20 AMP that blew) Anywho that fuse spit in two and I went to a higher amperage fuse to get it to the shop and it did just fine... I know thats a big no-no along the lines of electronics but I HAD to... Anywho, the shop said it was fine and that more than likely it's a bad ground, however I had them also check for any codes on the ECM and it only pulled up two (MAF and MAF Burnoff) Funny enough that the MAF and Burnoff relays were the only two electrical components I didn't replace (So pretty easy to single out the codes considering i KNOW the harness is golden...) However I rewired the blowing fuse and it still blows... So i came to the conclusion it's one of two things *Bad ECM ground somewhere (Will check soon) *Alternator keeps battery too high causing fuse to blow (Possible solution is to send power wire instead of to battery, send to BATT terminal on fuse block where it is not as heavily influenced by the alternator)* With a 35A inline fuse in 100 degree weather, it'll blow when the engine temp hits around 220 or so (Or under severe load) and I park for about 3-4 min and I can continue... I hope this ECM is good and doesn't have a funky internal short... I've replaced just about everything else and have wired it as how Darbysan described... On a better note, had my first little race with the TPI setup (Even with a messed up MAF relay and Burnoff relay) I somehow managed to smoke a late 80's 5.0 Mustang... I'm impressed with this set up and everytime I pop the hood I draw a crowd... Anywho thanks everyone.

How is your electric fan wired? Is it possible that when the ECM sees the water temp reaching 220, it triggers the fan-on line. If that line is shorted to ground, or if the fans are powered directly through the ECM fuse, then the fuse cannot handle the power. just something else to check.

I have the fans wired to both the ECM and a switch, I might be able to JUST use the switch and try that??? We'll see... I do know I have it wired to the battery right now and its not blowing fuses its just causing them to arch... so i pull over let the fuse cool off then I can start rolling again... very strange to me... but I don't want to go much higher on the amperage... I checked all my grounds earlier and they all looked good so Im getting slightly frustrated... I will be fixing the rest of it all today and see how it all works... I just hope the MAF sensor itself isn't toast from a backfire I had earlier this week, that's a bit of a pricey fix... It runs smooth as is, but I know with a faulty MAF sensor, it's only holding back the true potential of the TPI and is more than likely causing my slightly rough idle...

Well, I've never heard of a fuse "arching" and not blowing. One other thought could be the Electronics Module in the Distributor. When that get's hot it can quit working. Did you use heat sink compound on it when installing it? Might have it checked at the local auto parts store. Have them run it three or four times, to get it real hot.

Good call, however the ignition module thats in it right now is the EXACT same that was on it before and worked properly, so unless there was a voltage spike or some unforeseen condition that caused it to go... yikes... Along the lines of the fuse (im using glass fuses), if the Elco dies I can get it to the side of the road, pull out the ECM constant power fuse and it will not be blown, it will (instead of being straight from one side to the other) will be slightly warped, in time it settles back into its "straight" position... Again, strange to me as well... Today i'm going to check the voltage at the batt terminal of the fuse block and see if thats a suitable place for the constant, right now it's tied into the same circuit as the alternator causing frequent pulsing and "over-amping" the fuse... I figure the fuse block terminal should be more stable and a suitable fit for the Constant power side of the ECM... More to come

Well, there is too much power going through that fuse for some reason. On the Fan control from the ECM, do you have that wired to close a relay, or is it wired directly to the fan? I can't think of anything else that would draw that much power, and only come on at 220 degrees.

x2 D
ya gotta run the fans off battery power,use the ecm to trigger the relay to the fans..:texas:

and wtg on your swap 82

Anyone interested in buying a SD TPI Intake complete for $200.?

Thanks,
Dave

Okay everyone heres the update... found 1 blown fuse on the factory fuse block labeled acc pwr and it was a mere 15 amp fuse... it burst in turn burning out my ecm fuse... put in new fuse... all is well... along the lines of the fans, the relays are toast however i will still be running a switch because im not too wild about having them come on at 220... too hot for my taste... I've driven the elco with no check engine light and everything wired as is and drove about 170 since, and im pulling 19 mpg CITY!!! wow this was worth it!!! the power and torque is incredible and thus far is proving to be very reliable!!! The only thing I have to complain about is a slight "lag" when I leave a stop light... no check engine light at anytime, and everything is wired correctly, its almost like it diesels a little bit for the first little tap on the gas... a little diagnostics should fix this... we'll see... again thank you everyone for all your help on here!

Alright, finally got some pics of everything put back together, please ignore the left side of the motor as I still have to "massage" all the wires to fit the engine bay and somehow retro-fit the heater hoses... I also need to touch up all the painted parts to get the little chips to disappear... Other than that, any opinions???
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/296071_10150363625619444_716834443_8042353_6018766 39_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/317470_10150363626729444_716834443_8042358_1960144 147_n.jpg

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http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/303194_10150363624614444_716834443_8042349_1746044 630_n.jpg

Looks good. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. When you get into programming, you can change the temp for the fan on. I changed mine to On at 205, Off at 195. Those fans will draw a lot of power. Be sure to use a relay to drive them, or you will risk a fire. Switches are not typically made to handle 30+ amps.

Another project for the future would be to extend your air intake over to the Driver's inner fender well, and then turn it down and through the fender well. This will give you colder air intake, and improve performance.

Polished top looks cool. But most importantly ,it,s alive &your now seeing the benefit of all thatwork as I once did. My ls1 has never matched the fuel economy of mymodified tpi engine.Getting all those hoses & wires to look neat is a real chore, glad i didn,t have the emission stuff. I still don,t remember you saying what cam you have, if you even know, this may be part of your tuning issue. one thing at a time though.If youcould get your air filter a little further away from radiator & shield it , that could help. not just heat, but turbulance from fan could affect MAF. Mine never ran perfect, but it,s sure not on my regrets list.

Thank you all for the input... the wanna be C.A.I. is temporary for now as i simply needed to filter the air going in and this was the cheapest, nicest looking, and effective way to do it. I do plan on turning it down into the fenderwell and actually fabricating a hinged air-box for the filter with an air inlet through the fenderwell for true C.A.I... either way I work mids so the hottest I'll see the engine temp when I drive is 190... An update on the "lagging", I had forgot I had JUST disconnected the ECM and the computer was trying to recal itself to it's prior state, so now it runs just fine... No idle burps, no lag, just sheer power and smoothness... Along the lines of my cam, it does have a slight "lope" but I do not have any specifics, I know the computer doesn't throw any codes for it, but I could assume its either a re-man factory cam or an extremely mild cam... Either way this thing does make some nice top end power... Not to brag, however I ran this thing up against a '04 Eclipse GT spyder last night and surprised the hell out of the driver when I blew past him at 30mph after not even assuming we were racing... That has been my only full-throttle tale for now... I am trying to pamper this thing to identify any inconsistancies... I did take it down I-10 today for about 30 miles doing 65-75mph and it just sings going down the freeeway... thank god for 700r4s... lol. I will post more pics once everything is cleaned up. Oh, and before I forget, i did find a switch that could handle the amperage and its proving to be useful... I learned quickly the 20amp lit switches don't like those fans... Thanks again everyone.

By the way, keep in mind this is still my daily driver, and this TPI stuff is pretty good for this job... I've driven it for a week straight now with TPI and my smile keeps getting bigger.

On my LT-1 there is a separate fuse block for the PCM. There is power from BATT for the memory maintenance and there is power from IGN for operation, fuel pump, etc. None of this on mine is run through any other fuse. I took both BATT right off of the main fuse block and and IGN off of an ign switch wire that was no longer needed for the charging circuit (if I remembers kerecktly).

Congrats on all your hard work. Job well done!

C#

c#,
I attempted to do this as well for the BATT power, however due to the wiring harness power connection, it was by far more simple and a cleaner install to plug it onto the battery itself... I did use the IGN terminal for switched power to the ECM... and thank you very much... your LT-1 setup sounds pretty nifty... should post a pic up...

Okay everyone there is one small detail I left out about this swap that was unpredicted... My heater does not work and I believe i know why... My factory heater hoses were routed as follows: Inlet to heater came from intake manifold, outlet from heater went to waterpump... simple and it worked GREAT! Now here is how the TPI system works... One outlet off of throttle body to water-bypass valve, bypass valve has two lines (one in, one out) how does this work??? It's like the water doesn't even have a chance to circulate??? I came up with a solution, and realistically I'm looking for second opinions... I plugged my water pump outlet with a sender for the temp gauge (as it stands right now) and was thinking to get a T-Fitting with one male side (to water pump) one female (for temp sender) and one bung type fitting (to heater core)... And I could keep the inlet between the throttle body and heater core as is, putting a bypass valve inbetween??? Could this work??? Provided I could find a t-fitting large enough to permit water flow between water pump and heater core??? Or should I just buy a new by-pass valve??? This single in dual outlet/inllet valve does NOT seem like an efficient system... just sayin...HELP!!!

From a post on Thridgen.org: (Note. If using a Camaro radiator, the heater return lines go to the radiator, not the water pump. There is a bung for this just below the radiator cap on this model.)

The manifold feeds the heater core, so the diverter valve fits between the manifold and the heater core. And facing the firewall, the heater core inlet nipple is the one on the left, and the heater core outlet nipple is the one on the right. So...

A hose goes from the manifold to the inlet nipple on the diverter valve(and there should be a vacuum line laying around to connect to the top of the valve). Then of the pair of outlet nipples on the valve: the top outlet nipple returns to the radiator; the bottom outlet nipple goes to the heater core inlet(nipple on the left).


The hose from the heater core outlet(nipple on the right) returns to the radiator, but it joins-up with the hose from the diverter valve's upper outlet on its way to the radiator. So these are the hoses that you could choose to return to the water pump instead of the radiator.


I think they did the 2 outlet bypass valve so that hot water will continue to flow through the throttle body, even if you don't have the heater outlet "Active". Personally, I did the Throttle Body bypass, since I don't drive in cold climates, and it is supposed to provide a little power boost. If you bypass the throttle, then your old stock Heater Valve would work. I supposed you could use the old Heater Valve, and just forgo any flow of hot water through the throttle body unless you are using the heater- which makes a little sense anyway.
Here's the info on the Throttle Body Bypass.
http://www.thirdgen.org/coolantbypass

All of this would be greatly helpful... that is if I can the camaro radiator... i'm still running my El Camino factory 2 row radiator and its getting cold here in S. AZ... so a heater is becoming a must... right now is not tooo bad... but it will get very brisk very soon... i suppose it makes sense to have a dual bypass setup, however I'm trying to keep this simple as possible... and I really DO NOT want to go buy a new radiator if I don't have to... So, with that in mind, what do you think of my previous idea??? Heater core inlet comes from throttle body, and heater core outlet to water pump (using t-fitting with temp gauge sender?)???

As I said in my previous reply, you can use your old valve, and go directly to the water pump, or you can use the new valve, and go directly to the water pump, connecting the two outlets together before they get to the water pump ( one from new valve, one from Heater Core). Using a tee for the temp sender should not be an issue. If you don't want to use a valve, that's OK too. Just remember that you will have hot water flow through the heater core all the time. Next Summer you may want to fix that.

Alright, thank you very much... just needed verification.. and yes i WILL be using a valve as this is still arizona. winter time here is hot during the day and ice cold at night... so valve is a must... I just wish I had another location for the temp gauge sender... right now its located on water pump. I know I dont wanna mess with the sensors on the front of the intake manifold otherwise I'd put a t-fitting there (one to intake, one to sender, one to sensor...). and better utilize my water pump! Just an update as well, this thing still is running like a champ and is getting good mileage, makes awesome power, and no check engine light! I'm very happy to have gone this direction, not without guidance from everyone here... so thank you.

you can put the gauge sender in the head,,way better than the the pump(thats the cold side of the rad.)
there is a hole in each head,,driver/front between 1 and 3 sparkplug
pass/rear between 6 and 8 sparkplug..
cant remember where the coolant temp sensor went on the tpi??

as for the 2 row radiator(if its 1/2" tubes),,you might as well plan on an upgrade with a/c and the desert heat..

x2 on bypassing the throttle body heat just cause its easyer for now..

there may be a heater hose water outlet/plug on the rear of the intake cant remember??
nice swap,youll get there,goodluck..:texas:

Thanks for the reminder, forgot about the one on the side of the head... lol. I will be upgrading to a larger radiator next summer, however I want to make this one last... So if I understand this ALL correctly and I get a solid plan made now... I will (a) Remove u-shaped tubing between throttle body and lower plenum and throttle body outlet tube (b) cap off throttle body (c) relocate temp sender from water pump to drivers side head (d) reroute heater hoses (inlet for core coming from lower plenum outlet, and outlet from core going to water pump???) (e) enjoy heater??? I really want to get this right the first time, the last thing I need right now is a blown head gasket, leaking radiator, or some other god-aweful repair... thanks for the info!

that sounds right,
you might double check the size of the fittings,,
the throttle body hose may be smaller than the heater core??
and you may even want a 45*or 90* fitting on the lower intake??:texas:

No need to block off the throttle body inlet and outlets. At some time in the future, when you have time, you can just cut them off. You'll need a right angle fitting coming out of the front of the intake manifold. That connection will run to the heater core. The other hose from the heater will run to the water pump. Good idea to move the Temp Sender to the head.