Well, I'm almost done. Bleed the brakes and alignment are all I have left to do----pic#1 (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/fendoverhaul109e.jpg) pic#2 (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/fendoverhaul109b.jpg) I'll let you all know how much better it corners by mid week. :twisted:

Let's see...

I see some C5 brakes 8)

I would guess that means 13" rotors, tall spindles, and 17" wheels and tires?

I see some custom upper A-arms 8)

You make those up or buy them from?

I see a pretty darn large anti-roll bar with PU bushings 8)

I see heim joint tie rod ends and double threaded tie couplers 8)

You got a fast ratio steering box hiding out in there too?

Me likey. I will be looking for a full report of course :)

Steve

Hey Steve try this, if you still need more details let me know. 8) C5/road course suspension (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/frontsuspension.html)

And don't forget the delrin lower bushings.

Looks good Dennis. 8)

I have my C5 calipers for the front and LS1 Camaro brakes for the rear. The hubs are being cut from the rotors now. Probably going to take me a while since I have some house projects going on also.

The extra pictures helped a lot. You taking that thing racing? :cool: Or is this just going to be a very tricked out street ride? 8()

So it looks like you basically boxed the outer part of the LCA if I read the pictures right. This is a pretty highly stressed area being outside the spring and narrow (so it concentrates the forces).

I might add some reinforcing gussets to the UCA mount to restore the strength you cut out. The trick is whether the mount bolts would ever need to come out. If not a simple sheet reinforcement piece could be added with lines similiar to the center but tapered (triangled?) to match the A of the arms.

I might also wonder about the fatigue strength of the Speedway arms. They look to be a lot skinnier and have less reinforcement than other street arms I have seen.

Steve

Yeah, I boxed the whole underside from the spring mount to the ball joint and welded the bushing shells to the arms to reduce the flex in the channels. Yes, we are going racing-open road style. Buck-50 or so should be good. I thought about the Speedway arms, they hold together when the asphault guys bang into concrete barriers at 100+ so I think they will be OK. I would have preferred TIG welded arms but they look machine MIG welded, pretty good penetration. I'm still working on that UCA mount, I do need to be able to remove the attaching bolts (otherwise it's a b!itch to get the arm out), I'm thinking of just using some roll cage gussetts fore and aft of the mount on either end. That should be enough, most of it's stress is braking and the metal I cut away doesn't affect that force.

Thanks for the replys, I took it to work today and reset the rear springs to match the front, it fricken STOPS RIGHT NOW!! I'm serious, you touch the brake pedal and it slows, you hit hard and the guy behind you is in your lap. I've driven the Viper many times, C5 vette, Porcshe-most models, and about any other car that can be had for under 100K. I would rank my beast in the top 10 braking cars I've ever driven.

My concern on the arms and mounts is not yield/failure strength, but fatigue strength. I would watch them closely for cracks. Should not be a problem for racing as you *are* going to go over the car pretty closely before each race anyways. Right? :)

Yeah I have a brake upgrade on my Mustang. I never would have thought much about upgrading brakes before. But after having some 13" rotors I too am a big believer. That is on my wish list for the Elco although I will probably only go up to 12" so I don't have to change out rims.

On the bolts... can they be turned around the other way? Put nuts inside the frame mount and bolt in through the arm/shims? All UCA loads are transferred through that upper mount and a failure could really ruin your day. As another alternative you could double up the mount metal thickness.

Steve

My concern on the arms and mounts is not yield/failure strength, but fatigue strength. I would watch them closely for cracks. Should not be a problem for racing as you *are* going to go over the car pretty closely before each race anyways. Right? :)

Steve

Yeah, me and the team of tech officials.

Dennis68,

Been poking around your web-site a bit...

What part number did you use on the upper control arms? It looks like there are about three different designs.

Did I read the caster numbers right? 8 degrees? That sounds like a lot of caster.

Your thoughts on the rear suspension match mine very closely. How much further beyond basic linkage type have you gotten in your design process? We know the converging link setup sucks, but have you tried taking any measurements to see just how badly it sucks? I have contemplated attaching a tracing device to determine how much the rear end moves around, especially laterally. I read that the Mustang version of this suspension setup actually moved up to 2 inches. Pretty much dwarfs the slight swing of a well setup panhard bar. I see that Speedway also has a panhard bar mount. But their bars are all way too short. Looks like the 82 and later Camaros had much better bars and there are lots of aftermarket versions out there.

I see you have also met corner-carvers.com. Quite an interesting forum I would say both in tech content and attitude 8O

Steve

Steve, I used Speedway 917-20007S, it's a 9.5" strut type arm. Yeah, you read correct-8.30 degrees and 9.25 on the right for road crown compensation. You would be surprised how stable those old things can be at 100+ with some real caster, I don't even notice a difference during parking lot maneuvers.

I did run the numbers for the OE type setup, I forget the numbers and didn't record them. I remember AS being real low and RRCH was like 17" or something ridiculous. I am going to use Colemans PHB for links, they are HD tubes with 3/4 rod ends and are available in almost any length up to 40", they will build a longer link if you want for a few extra bucks. Check here (http://www.colemanracing.com/section/index.htp?id=574) for a look at what is available. I am going to run those same links for the lower links and the 3rd link. I have figured to build a mount off the factory upper mounts for the axle bracket and I think I'm going into the smugglers box for the frame link, that way I can make adjustments from the top. I'll keep everybody up to date as I progress. Hopefully by spring (tax returns are good for budgets) I'll be done with suspension and paint.

I know for sure the axle moves laterally at least an inch (that's how much tire clearance to the fender I have and it rubs in the twisties) so hopefully a properly set up PHB will curb that. I really like the stance and would hate to raise it for tire clearance.

I've been over at c-c.com for a while (mostly lurking), I actually like the bluntness and lack of "political correctness", if your an a$$ they tell you-if your wrong they tell you that too and always back up thoughts with tech of some kind.

cya

Granite Bay huh? Just north of Sac right? Maybe next time I head up to Chevyland I'll give shout ahead of time. I don't suppose you run around with Sac. Chevelles do you?

I do not understand Speedway's arm terminology. I understand "offset" but "strut"? Based on your results, I guess the offset actually installs towards the front rather than towards the rear as I might have expected. How did you figure out which arms to use? Did you put the rest of the parts together and then measure?

I would not expect you to notice the extra caster in the parking lot, but yeah I bet that is really stable going down the freeway. Especially with 40 series tires and some "appropriate" springs 8)

I have never done anything *but* lurk on CC so the attitude and newbie thrashing can be pretty entertaining. There really is some great tech, when you find it. Like most any board, you have to do a lot of mining to find the best nuggets.

I just did some scribbling on a napkin... and using a 40" PHB and 6" of suspension travel I get a lateral movement due to PHB arc of somewhere around 1/8". That should keep the tires from rubbing. Although if you move the PHB low enough you will see a bit more at the tires from RRC arc.

Just for the heck of it you might checkout steeda.com and their 5-link setup for the Mustang. There may be an idea there worth ripping off, or not.

Have you seen the GM Pro-Touring book that is out? It has a very slick 175MPH '69 El Camino featured in it. Twin turbos and lots of other goodies. Sounded like it was based in the Bay Area some place. It had a three link setup in it with a sprung link so there was a little give in the drivetrain. They had some name for it that escapes me at the moment. Supposedly it provided very good hook-up. Of course being closer you may have already seen the actual car?

Yep, that Granite Bay. Be great to get together. I am relatively new to the El Camino/Chevelle scene. Between that and family committments I have not really connected with any car clubs. I am trying to figure out if I can make down to the Pleasanton show in November... but it pretty much means I would have to bring my 7yr old son with me. Might work if I promise Game Boy time...

Steve

I don't fully undestand the term strut vs. offset either but offset is obvious and the "strut" type arms have 0 offset. The A body has the arms offset towards the front so installing strut type arms automatically gives a huge caster increase, then I just shimmed to what i wanted. I measured some Hotchkis arms to get a ballpark measurement of the distance from cross shafts to bal joint and took a guess, worked out OK.

No, I haven't read Tony's book yet. iI have been over there fopr a long time.

Yeah Vinces Elco over in South SF is pretty cool, he actually drives it as a commuter sometimes.

I am going to try and make it to the November show, will probably bring the kid with me.