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Necoa #: 2321
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 1168
Year: 1974
Model: El Camino
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: 700R4 or 2004R??
I've been reading about the two GM OD transmission offerings that work best with our rides and now I'm a bit confused.
I always heard that the 2004R was the weaker of the two trannys yet they put it behind the Buick Grand National.
Also read that early 700R4's were weak but the later ones were better. I know the 2004R has a .67 overdrive gear compared to the 700R4's .70 gear. I also know the first gear in the 2004r is 2.74 first and the 700r4 has a 3.06. I've got a TH400 now and the 2004r's first gear is actually better than the 2.48 but also more mileage friendly with my 3.42 posi rear end when you add in the overdrive.
So I'd like to hear from anyone on this site who has at least a couple of years experience running either of these transmissions. I used to think that the 700R4 was the end-all be-all GM OD for older cars but now I'm on the fence after reading some horror stories around the internet.
Make sure you 3rd and 4th gen owners speak up too!
THanks!
_________________ 74 El Camino Classic - project car #1
96 Camaro - RIP, Traded 10-16-2007
2008 Mustang GT, It ain't a Chevy but at least it's American!
Necoa #: 5109
Location: 16(CO,MT,WY,UT)
Joined: Mar 26, 2005
Posts: 161
Year: 1965
Model: El Camino
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject:
200-4r is a great transmission. If you can find one. They are getting harder and harder to find. They were indeed a bit on the weaker side, but they, like any transmission (including the 700R4) can be built for whatever your HP needs are. You've got your background pretty well down on the ratios. One other thing is that the 200-R4 will fit without moving a crossmember (I believe) and without shortening the driveshaft. The 700R4 requires both of these. If your HP demands aren't that high, either transmission will be good.
Myself, I'm holding out for a 700R4 once I have the time to work on my '65 again. With my rear-end gear of 3.08, coupled with that first gear of the tranny, its the equivalant of a TH350 with a 3.73 gear out the back. all that with an OD, to boot. _________________ Check out my (wife's) El Camino at http://elcaminocentral.com/gallery-album_Wifes-65-ELky.html
Necoa #: 11730
Location: 9(IN,KY,MI)
Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 132
Year: 1978
Model: El Camino
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: tranny
Hey
I have used both the 200R-4 and 700R-4 in past performance cars I have had . I believe they are both a little weaker than the TH400 you have now but you can strenghten either to handle your application . I had a 1991 Chevy S10 with around 500 Horsepower that I actually started off with a 700R-4 in that truck to make it more street friendly but it didnt last very long so I put a 200R-4 in it and it lasted for over a year under extreme stress . I think its all in what you want each transmission to do with your application . You can upgrade each of the two to handle a ton of horsepower and torque or if its for a mostly stock application they will do just fine the way they are . I really have had good luck with both .
The 700R-4 is much easier to find and probably the least expensive of the two . I have seen several on Ebay lately so maybe you should check those out .
Necoa #: 10934
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 440
Year: 1981
Model: El Camino
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject:
700's are far more common these days. The earlier ones had a 28(I believe) spline input shaft. The later ones went to a 30 spline shaft. Either the 700 or 200 can be built to handle your HP needs. Just go to any turbo Buick web site and get refrences for a good tranny shop. GM added some HD parts to the GN trannys for them to hold up. The Monte SS, Cutlass 442 and Hurst Olds got the weaker version. but they can still be built up. 200 will use the same crossmember as your 400. Drive shaft length would be the same as a TH350. Not sure how the 400 and 350 are in relation to driveshafts. You will have to use a different yoke on the tranny side. The 700 will need the driveshaft shortened 3" from the TH350 length. The crossmember will need to be moved. I think it goes farther forward from the 400. i have a 700R4 in my 84 Monte SS. It came with a TH350. They didnt get the 2004R till 85. Its been in there about 2 years now. I have no complaints about the tranny. But never had a 2004R to compare it with. I think you'd be happy with either one. Just depends on what kind of deal you can come up with.
A big block will kill a built 700r after about 10,000 miles. Thats all the Bowtie Overdrives unit(level 3)has lasted for me. It's still in the car and working at normal driving but under heavy acceleration the 2-3 shift is soft and it slips in 3rd. Same thing happened to a stock 700 I had behind a very mild 350.
I'm done with it. I'm hoping it will last til I can come up with a 4L80e or maybe even a 5 or 6 speed manual. No more 700rs for me! _________________ Ol Paint and me
454/700R4/3.31 posi
8.30 @ 82.23 / 60ft @ 1.82
AND
14.5 mpg average on HRPT 2006
Necoa #: 2321
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 1168
Year: 1974
Model: El Camino
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the replies, keep em coming.
As for driveshaft length, I think the TH400 is the same length as the 700R4. I had to get my driveshaft shortened when I switched from a Th350 to the TH400 so that may be ok but if the yoke is different I'll have to get it changed anyway and rebalanced of course.
I never plan more than 600HP which puts me in range of most "built" GM OD trannys.
_________________ 74 El Camino Classic - project car #1
96 Camaro - RIP, Traded 10-16-2007
2008 Mustang GT, It ain't a Chevy but at least it's American!
Here's my situation ; I purchased my '85 with a 2004-R swapped in behind the 305. A crosmember section has been welded in, not pretty but looks solid. Not sure if the rear is stock but I checked rotation on a lift and it seems to be a 2.41. This car LIVES between 1500-2000 rpms normal cruise. Around town its 3rd gear all day, unless traffic is moving and I get to at least 45-47 mph at which point it'll hit 4th. On the freeway I'm taching 1600 at 60, 1800 at 70, 2000 at 80. Above that and passing everything on the road, pegging the 85mph speedo and climbing into license suspention territory, I have NEVER tached it over 2400 rpms since I'm reasonably sure I was well into century territory and common sense prevailed. Talk about long legs ! Another thing. In my car, this situation does not translate into any kind of great highway mileage so don't get any ideas. Of course, I already have a set of 3.41 gears on reserve to install and balance this un-natural situation. Then I'll be looking to do something with the boat anchor up front but that's another thread. It will do a little burnout tho ! _________________ Chillin in Lauderdale
Necoa #: 5673
Location: 2(CT,MA,ME,NH,RI,VT)
Joined: Jun 26, 2005
Posts: 850
Year: 1970
Model: El Camino
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject:
bigjames4xl wrote:
A big block will kill a built 700r after about 10,000 miles. Thats all the Bowtie Overdrives unit(level 3)has lasted for me. It's still in the car and working at normal driving but under heavy acceleration the 2-3 shift is soft and it slips in 3rd. Same thing happened to a stock 700 I had behind a very mild 350.
I'm done with it. I'm hoping it will last til I can come up with a 4L80e or maybe even a 5 or 6 speed manual. No more 700rs for me!
Oh no.
I have a BTO built TH700 behind my 454 with about 5000 miles on it. You mean to tell me I only have 5000 miles 'till it craps out?
Feels awfully strong today. Of course I hope to prove you wrong, but at only 2000 miles a year it'll probably be some time. Wish me luck.
As for past performance, I couldn't be happer with mine. It does exactly as advertised and has never given any sign of slipping between gears, even under full throttle shifts. I checked the tranny pan last year for debris. Found nothing but a little normal silt.
I do run an aux tranny cooler though, in conjunction with the one in the radiator. Have heard that helps grunches.
The TH400 is almost bulletproof, but a little harder on gas. Plus it doesn't have any overdrive or lock-up converter capability. So as hard as it is to give up a beefy tranny, at today's fuel prices I'd still opt for an overdrive tranny. Therefore between the TH700 and TH200, I'd still choose the 700
because of the design strength differences. Downside is the TH700 is longer and will require shortening the driveshaft and moving the cross member aft.
If you aren't buying a stock tranny, then I'd get the one that'll handle the most torque and offers the highest warranty for the money.
Don't forget your TH400's yoke is bigger so that'll have to be changed too. _________________ 70 Elky (Non-SS) 454CID, TH700-R4
69 Chev C-10 Pickup (recently Upgraded to 454) w/TH400
29 Model A (Recently Sold).
I have a BTO built TH700 behind my 454 with about 5000 miles on it. You mean to tell me I only have 5000 miles 'till it craps out?
That's exactly what I'm telling you!!!
I hope you have better luck though.
I had an early version of their tv cable linkage so I decided to try their TV Made Easy set up to confirm that's not the issue. I'm still looking at a soft parts rebuild regardless. But trust me on this, I'm not the only one having trouble getting a 700r to live behind a BBC. _________________ Ol Paint and me
454/700R4/3.31 posi
8.30 @ 82.23 / 60ft @ 1.82
AND
14.5 mpg average on HRPT 2006
I had almost 40,000 on my Monte CarloSS with a built 383 and 3.42 rear gear with a th700r4 in betweenwhen I sold it. Still running as far as I know---it saw many many trips down the drag strip and always ran in the high 12s on street tires---My best friend has one in his 69 Camero with 406 running middle 11s---been in there over 10 years so far and it sees slicks at the dragstrip plus soft compound tires on the street---when we built his we built a spare because we were sure it wouldn't last---so far the spare is a paper weight and I'm sure he has over 20,000 on his too. both our engines made in the 500 lb/ft of torque which is big block territory by any standards---you have to keep them cool though to make them live---start with an 86 or later tranny and you are in good shape. the transmission mount on the th700r4 is only 3/4 of an inch rearward so just extending the slot in the crossmember may be allthats needed there but it is 3 1/2 inches longer than most transmissions other than the long tail shaft th400---the th2004r is the same length as most other transmissions other than the th700r4 and lohg shaft th400 but the mount is 6 1/2 inches rearward.............Dan _________________ I don't think I have ever had a car that was "FINISHED"........unless it was totaled.
one thing i would also consider is the 1-2 drop in gear ratios. the 700 is huge. both are good trannys though with a little help. i know for sure if you plan to go with the 700 upgrade the sun shell. just my .02 cents.
There are several things you want to do if you are going to use them in high HP situations the sun shell is definitely one of them, there is also a 13 vane front pump option available in the aftermarket, the stock early units used seven and the later ones ten----the more vanes the less the pulsations in line pressure, the boost valve for the front pump and the corvette servo just to name some ..........................Dan _________________ I don't think I have ever had a car that was "FINISHED"........unless it was totaled.
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