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Old 06-15-2017, 07:31 PM
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Default Another Drum-to-Disc Conversion, Wrong Master Again?

So I am in the process of installing a Right Stuff Front Disc Conversion Kit as well as their stainless hardline kit in our '66.
At the start, a Chrysler Master Cylinder was delivered along with a manual proportioning valve. That was eventually remedied by a knowledgeable lady at Right Stuff. So I sent it back for a refund and ordered the same part number again.
This one at least had the correct GM proportioning valve, but the master cylinder was wider than I had ever seen before. Okay, whatever.
So today, after finally getting the tubular A-arms installed, the Right Stuff Discs installed, and the Right Stuff Lines to the rear in place, I go to install the master and prop. valve.
No Go.
I'll post pictures in my garage since I guess I haven't posted enough yet.
It appears this fat Master Cylinder puts the prop. valve too far into the inner fender. In the pictures you can see that the prop. valve is too high in the bracket for the lines to attach to the master cylinder. But if it was low enough to connect to the master, you couldn't connect the driver's side front brake line or the rear line to the prop. valve.

So after all of this, what year master cylinder should I go buy so that I can get this car working again. I hate to say it, but I need it running yesterday.

Thanks, brothers, for letting me vent, and for any help.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:37 PM
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Does anything in the images of this CPP article help?

Classic Performance Products Brake Upgrade GM A Body Chevelle 1964-72 http://www.classicperform.com/abody.htm
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:22 AM
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Default Master Cylinder

Hello David:

I did the same conversion on a 64 and it was pretty tight against the inner fender (maybe 1/4 to 3/8 clearance). I used a Summit Racing kit that is no longer available but the M/S is a Delco product #5460346. GM used them for many applications. I plumbed my own brake lines from the M/S to the proportioning valve and then from the proportioning valve to the distribution block on the frame rail. Here are some photos that I hope will help. This is a Wilwood proportioning valve. I preferred it to the stock valve. Here is a link to one source for the M/S if you decide to go that way.

Good luck.

http://www.zip-corvette.com/67-j-56-...r-5460346.html
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:28 PM
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Old Bear, thank you for the link. We went for manual disc as a future hot cam would not provide the vacuum that the booster would require. There are some good points in there, though.

Thank you for the pics, DiscoveryBay, they are helpful. That master looks like mine. I bought some line and have a flaring tool and bender, so after getting all of the lines to the proportioning valve, I will make this puppy connect!

Thanks again, guys.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:46 PM
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So here's where I am, and I'm not happy.
To get the proportioning valve bracket to fit, I had to slot the holes that hold it, and drill holes to clear the lower studs below the two that the Master Cylinder mounts to.
Then, with things left sloppy, I was barely able to get the rear brake line in place between the Master Cylinder and the Proportioning Valve. The front one was never going to happen. So we flared and bent a replacement.
I think we're already past the level of the basic hobbyist.
When we ran the rear line to the front, the fitment was okay, missing some bends here and there. But the interesting part was that it ended a foot past where the connecting line came down from the Proportioning Valve. We had to re-engineer how those connected, making a duplicate of the connecting line out of thick wire, then seeing how we could modify that to properly connect to the rear line.
Now that everything was connected, we tapped holes and mounted the line clips. That part went okay.
As we started to bleed the system, there were several leaky connections. No amount of tightening would stop them, so the seating must be messed up. At least the flared connections we made didn't have any issues. The supplied short line we managed to fit leaks too, so it looks like we will have to fabricate another line for that one as well.
Tomorrow.

In short, I would never recommend this kit to anyone. Ever.
I had higher hopes for a pre-bent hard line kit. I thought it would at least line-up with itself. I thought the flared connections would be correct enough not to leak.
At least the spindles, bearings, calipers, dust shields and brackets all worked flawlessly together. Maybe they should just sell those items.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:23 PM
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Is it possible that the lines were made for vac assist? Now that you are manual, you are about 7 inches closer to the firewall. Additionally, the power booster and master sometimes angle up (about 6 degrees) from the firewall. Without the extra length of the booster, the master cylinder could be a little closer to the tops of the inner fenders. Possibly the mount to the firewall is different for the manual brakes vs. power vacuum assist brakes, providing a quicker incline?

Last edited by Old Bear; 06-17-2017 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:47 AM
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It is possible that I received a mix of lines.
I started with manual drum, converting to manual disc. The front lines are almost too short for this manual set-up, would never make it if a booster was used.
After the finding during test fitting that I couldn't fully assemble the system after first receiving it, I looked up each part number to make sure they were for the manual disc conversion. I wanted to be sure that I was ready to go when I tore the car down.
But who knows. If a Chrysler M/C can find it's way into a box with a Chevelle/El Camino part number on the outside, then a brake line switch wouldn't be out of the question either.

Thank you for your response, I appreciate it.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:17 AM
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I considered switching to disc brakes. I was going to have a brake and alignment place do the conversion for me. They told me they did not recommend doing the conversion or rather they did not want to do the conversion because there are so many issues that come up while doing it. These kits apparently do not fit every scenario. You may need a different master or different valve depending on how your vehicle responds to the conversion. The kit is apparently just the tip of the iceberg. The costs to have someone do it that is willing to go through all the BS is astronomical. So in the end I opted to just completely redo my entire stock brake system and that was great for me. I do wish that I could have done discs, but I dont want to "figure it out". lol Looks like you are on your way to getting it going though. You are a braver soul than I.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:40 AM
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David
It does sound like you are getting there.

Just for humor. You are missing this part. (Not a cheap solution).
Conversion to Hydro Boost Brake System - 1970 El Camino
http://www.elcaminocentral.com/showthread.php?t=152114
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G8GTx2 View Post
So I am in the process of installing a Right Stuff Front Disc Conversion Kit as well as their stainless hardline kit in our '66.
At the start, a Chrysler Master Cylinder was delivered along with a manual proportioning valve. That was eventually remedied by a knowledgeable lady at Right Stuff. So I sent it back for a refund and ordered the same part number again.
This one at least had the correct GM proportioning valve, but the master cylinder was wider than I had ever seen before. Okay, whatever.
So today, after finally getting the tubular A-arms installed, the Right Stuff Discs installed, and the Right Stuff Lines to the rear in place, I go to install the master and prop. valve.
No Go.
I'll post pictures in my garage since I guess I haven't posted enough yet.
It appears this fat Master Cylinder puts the prop. valve too far into the inner fender. In the pictures you can see that the prop. valve is too high in the bracket for the lines to attach to the master cylinder. But if it was low enough to connect to the master, you couldn't connect the driver's side front brake line or the rear line to the prop. valve.

So after all of this, what year master cylinder should I go buy so that I can get this car working again. I hate to say it, but I need it running yesterday.

Thanks, brothers, for letting me vent, and for any help.


Wilwood flex lines. They have all different types and fittings.
http://www.wilwood.com/LineKits/LineKits.aspx
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:16 AM
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Default Brake Line Connections

You're probably beyond that point by now but for future use, I have found that when making brake line connections and tightening, for a better seal, if you dip the connections in brake fluid before tightening it acts like a lubricant and allows for a better seal and ease of tightening rather than trying to dry fit and tighten those flared ends.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:16 PM
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Thanks, guys.

That Hydro-boost thing looks crazy! ..But interesting.

After redoing the other line that goes from the Master to the Proportioning Valve, we seem to have solved that leak, but the hard line-to-flex lines at both front wheels still weeps a little. I took the passenger side one off and looked at the brass reversed flare part on the flex line and noticed it has a groove radially halfway down. I'll post a picture in my garage somewhere.
The driver's side didn't go as well. I had tightened the crap out of it last night, so today, even using the line wrench, it rounded the fitting as I was trying to loosen it. I had to use vice grips, but now it just weeps at least. It will have to be changed out.

I will definitely try the oil or brake fluid on the threads and all before tightening next time.

Thanks again, guys.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G8GTx2 View Post
Thanks, guys.

That Hydro-boost thing looks crazy! ..But interesting.

After redoing the other line that goes from the Master to the Proportioning Valve, we seem to have solved that leak, but the hard line-to-flex lines at both front wheels still weeps a little. I took the passenger side one off and looked at the brass reversed flare part on the flex line and noticed it has a groove radially halfway down. I'll post a picture in my garage somewhere.
The driver's side didn't go as well. I had tightened the crap out of it last night, so today, even using the line wrench, it rounded the fitting as I was trying to loosen it. I had to use vice grips, but now it just weeps at least. It will have to be changed out.

I will definitely try the oil or brake fluid on the threads and all before tightening next time.

Thanks again, guys.
Put some pipe thread tape on and call it a night. It works done it several times on different cars and stopped the leak.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:28 AM
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Default Leaky Brake Lines

The brake line fitting is designed to seal at the flare not the threads. If you haven't already purchased then, I would go on Amazon and spend the $30 or so and buy a descent flare nut wrench set. You get much better torgue with the correct wrench. They are designed for that purpose. If you are using vise grips I would buy new fittings or lines and start over. With all do respect to HKDUP87 I would not use any type of thread seal tape on brake lines. As far as lubricating the flare fitting as I recommeded, use brake fluid, not motor oil. I'm not sure what even a small amount motor oil in the brake fluid might do with all the additives used in motor oil today. Not intending to offend anyone, just my 2 cents.

I'm curious why you're not installing a booster. Unless I overlooked it in your post did you mention issues with vacuum pressure level?
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:16 AM
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I did my 72 with a conversion kit from Ground Up, came with everything needed and had no trouble with anything not fitting, leaking or working. Just went and looked and they still have the same kit i used plus many other kits as well. Would highly recommend them based on what i got but your results may vary. lol
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