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Old 03-06-2017, 12:32 PM
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Default Fuel problem?

New member here with a recently purchased 1970. The car runs well but when hot will not re-start. It spins fast and is getting gas (maybe too much). I've had to let the car cool for about an hour and then it will start right up. The motor is a .030 over 454 with a 700 double pumper Holley and a lumpy hydraulic roller cam. MSD ignition. Electric Holley fuel pump putting maintaining 7 pounds of pressure near the motor. I've been told to check and make sure that the car has a vented gas cap. I'll do that tonight. I've also been told to replace the fuel pump with a mechanical one. Right now the fuel pump seems to pump at a constant speed (pressure). It is always loud, not getting quieter after a period of time. I'm not sure if this is normal or not. Suggestions?
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:42 PM
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Vapor lock? Check the choke when its hot and make sure its not closing on you when you turn it off.
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:48 PM
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Thanks. The choke is not closing when hot.
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:55 PM
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Its probably vapor lock, it usually is with these issues, check the temp of the fuel line for any hot spots and try to shield them from the heat, I've heard in strange cases the ignition modules get hot and kick a thermal safety switch till it cools down, not very common though. Also double check the actual temp of the radiator in and out with a temp gun if you have one.
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:21 PM
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welcome Richard

could be heat soak
the motor heats up after you kill it and could be boiling the fuel in the carb and flooding the motor..
sometimes a thick insulating carb base gasket will help, or a insulating spacer,
do some testing, check the fuel level in the bowl after sitting hot and
look down in the carb see if you have any dripping off the boosters..
if it flooded?? hold the throttle wide open when its hot and see if it starts better/faster??

retarded ignition timing will cause the motor to run hotter also..

a holley carb should handle 7 pounds of fuel pressure if the floats are adjusted right,
flow is what you need to feed a carb not pressure, 5 psi is plenty with the right flow..

tank venting usually causes fuel starvation on a longer drive,
vapor lock is kinda the same, fuel starvation from heat during a drive..

2 reasons for a loud pump
mounted to thin sheet metal and/or its not double rubber mounted,,
or cavitation where the pump suction is blocked, usually goes lean on a WOT pull..

x2 on the choke..

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Old 03-06-2017, 02:28 PM
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x2 could be a ignition problem too
make sure you have a spark when its not starting, a bad or over heated coil or module
can do the same thing..
check for a spark at the plug, or put a timing light on it and check for a spark..

Quote:
I've heard in strange cases the ignition modules get hot and kick a thermal safety switch till it cools down, not very common though.
not un-common with cheap low quality parts, from the chain stores now days,
out of the box failure or short life span, is less common with good parts tho..

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Old 03-06-2017, 02:31 PM
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Where is your electric fuel pump mounted? Could be the pump is getting hot and the fuel is being vaporized at the pump. If that happens, the pump loses prime and won't draw fuel up and out of the tank. Does it help to have the tank full?

I had these problems with my '78 Lincoln. Only solution was an in-tank pump and bypass regulator up front.
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:14 PM
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:26 PM
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In my experience, if there is an ignition problem, the vehicle quits running and when it cools off will start again. Problems with the coil are like that. If it was running until you shut it off, I'd put my guess on a fuel problem. My '64 runs hot and is somewhat difficult to restart when hot.....starts right off when cold.
Good luck.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:05 AM
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Thanks for the replies. I've had a login issue and haven't been able to get in to reply. Now that the weather has turned bad again and I can't get the car out to drive, I had a chance to work on it over the weekend. Two issues found quickly. First the distributer cap is burnt. It's an MSD cap and had to be ordered as no one local stocks them. The second issue was a broken distributor advance spring. I replaced both springs. I also replaced a couple of non-working gauges and in doing so apparently pulled an ignition wire loose somewhere because the car won't turn over now. I'll get back on it when the cap comes in. This was at least part of the problem but I think I still have a fuel issue also.
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utfan356 View Post
New member here with a recently purchased 1970. The car runs well but when hot will not re-start. It spins fast and is getting gas (maybe too much). I've had to let the car cool for about an hour and then it will start right up. The motor is a .030 over 454 with a 700 double pumper Holley and a lumpy hydraulic roller cam. MSD ignition. Electric Holley fuel pump putting maintaining 7 pounds of pressure near the motor. I've been told to check and make sure that the car has a vented gas cap. I'll do that tonight. I've also been told to replace the fuel pump with a mechanical one. Right now the fuel pump seems to pump at a constant speed (pressure). It is always loud, not getting quieter after a period of time. I'm not sure if this is normal or not. Suggestions?
Your MSD BOX is going out trust me!!!!!!! if it's the new style it only has a PC board inside HEAT KILLS. only doesn't restart when it's hot out!!! Next time it does it pull the coil wire off the dist. and put a screwdriver by the coil wire end and you won't have any spark till it sits an hour then it will fire up. I changed coils same problem wouldn't start ran up and bought a new box BAMM done. Mount the MSD BOX inside behind the glove box on the fire wall.

GUARANTEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:39 PM
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utfan56, you noted MSD ignition. Is this a complete system. Dist, coil and 6AL box or something similar.

First if it's a Holley blue or red it will only get louder. These can break the drive shaft but it's uncommon. More often just wear out the vanes. You can get rebuild kits. I'd install a fuel pressure gage. I have one that I just remove an 1/8" pipe plug and screw it in near the carbs. If you are pumping from the electric pump to the mech pump you should have a regulator between it and the carb. The Holley one is pretty good. Again 5 psi max, leave it alone.

7 psi at the carbs is too much for Holley carbs. 5 psi and leave it alone.

The carb needs a non metalic spacer at least 1/2 in thick. Generally a 1" is better yet. It's a good idea to have an inline filter near the carb.

Now back to MSD. Since they went to a digital box they have had troubles. I've replaced three on my Willys. It's also is in a no start situation again. If it's the box again it's getting a 300 Win Mag through it point blank and I'll put a points dist in if I have too. Our cruise group has had numerous MSD failures last summer. So hopefully you have the instructions for testing it. They want you to try a new coil first. If you don't have the instructions look them up on the MSD web site.

The short version is: unplug the coil wire from the dist set it up so you can clearly see the end. Set the end about 1/8 " from ground. Disconnect the violet and blue wire connector at the dist end. Make a short jumper wire that you can short across these. ( you short across the two going to the box.) turn the ign on. Short across the violet and blue wires. Each time you break the short you should get a spark at the coil wire. No spark you need to try a new coil. Still no spark. Take a good picture of your set up. Then call MSD your unit is out of warrantee so they will most likely tell you to send it in (at your expense) or buy a new box.

There are some auto parts stores that can test the box. Usually those that sell MSD products. You can try them. Your other choice is to purchase a Pertronics non box dist. These have a magnetic pickup but are bullet resistant. There are others too.

Cap and rotors. I've replaced at least half a dozen on my Willys. I usually have a spare with it but this year I just forgot to replace it. The buttons don't last like an HEI. The last one of mine had hole burnt through the rotor. Less than 2500 miles.

If your box is under hood it may be just getting too hot. We poured cold water on one and the car started right up. I have my 6AL mounted under the dash. Much cooler there.

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Old 03-13-2017, 07:46 PM
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All very good suggestions to troublesome problems, It might be a very good time to invest in a good temp gun though, it will change your life when trouble shooting engine problems.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:38 PM
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Here you only need to watch the first 30 sec or so. do this when the truck won't start and see if you have no spark. Don't buy anything till you do this test.



I couldn't find anything burnt but it's a bad box only 2 years old. it still works as long as the temp outside is cool but hot engine and hot day won't restart till about an hour.




here's the plug to short from the box.


Last edited by HKDUP87; 03-13-2017 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:08 AM
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I have a complete MSD setup. The distributor cap is burnt and a new one is ordered. The car will start with the current cap when cold.
It is a Holley blue pump located near the tank. Fuel pressure gauge indicates about 6 pounds of pressure to a 700 Holley double pumper. There is a regulator and no mechanical pump.
I don't have a spacer on the carb.
The 6AL box is mounted on the firewall under the hood. I don't think it is the current style of box. This one doesn't have the plug and play connector. It may be getting hot but I don't think that is the issue. The car wouldn't restart yesterday sitting in the shop (50 degrees in the shop) with the hood open.
I've had the car for about a month now. During test drives I had no problems but didn't drive car for long and the water temperature gauge wasn't working so I don't know how hot it got. New gauge now.
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