[Hat Trick]

After reading all your post on the rear install I was betting proctologist.😁
Tom

 

[sdcerreta]

😂

 

[sdcerreta]

I am super bummed. The shop called me yesterday to tell me to come pickup the car. They got it back together but could not figure out the vibration and said they were done. I was not pleased and did the best I could to tell them that they broke the car and that I took it in for an oil pump and oil pan replacement and to stop all the leaks and now I have a motor with an undrivable vibration. I now have to take this to another shop for repairs and while I really want to say good things about my experience with them, this makes it impossible.

He called me back an hour later to tell me they are going to pull the motor back out and take a look at it. Today I get the call to come down to the shop and check it out. So, first off the stuck dip stick was removed and it was shredded. Apparently they said there was no lower dipsick tube in this motor. They did not find one and when the put the motor back together the dipstick got sucked up by the crank and wrapped into a groove on the crankshaft. Then he pointed out all the scarring on the cylinder walls and explained that this was bad and caused by a lack of oil in the motor because they found the pickup tube in the oil pan unattached and that was explaining some of my low oil pump pressures. He suggested that I just buy a new motor. He suggested a ZZ4 motor which is actually no longer available and it has vortec heads which I cannot mount my ProFlo4 onto this as it needs to fit onto standard cylinder heads.The shop further pulled the main crank bearing off and discovered a lot of scoring and said this was an accident waiting to happen and the motor needs replaced or rebuilt.

I cannot begin to express my disgust. I was feeling sick after getting the call from the shop and seeing the motor. All I wanted was for the car to stop leaking. It started with a rear main seal, new oil pan and oil pump that was it. They broke this motor and introduced a vibration that was never there before. They keep saying this motor is internally balanced but I recall my father-in-law telling me that he had troubles with the flexplate and I recall him having to balance it or something. The shop put in a new one and said the old one was not cracked or anything was wrong with it.

The motor is an SBC 350. It is not original and from what I can tell it came from a 74 car with 190hp, 2 barrel carb with 2 bolt main and 2 piece rear main seal. The shop told me the block is a 3970014. I also had some codes marked in my book and that includes an engine VIN #14K475843 and Code # T0102CMR. I know this has low horespower and it woudl be nice to upgrade, but I have $1500 in this work with another $650 owed and a broken car with a bad vibration and apparently now a motor they say is not worth putting back into the car.

The shop did offer that if I buy a new motor they will not chrage any additional labor to get it running right (if they are capable) and return it to me. They do seem sincere, but several times the owner pointed out that they are not a hot rod shop and this is not the kind of work they do. I feel like they broke my car and I lack the confidence in them to proceed.

So, the dilemna, is that I can have them put everything back together and I can hope the vibration is gone, but I doubt it. I will have $2200 into the car and I will need to take it somewhere else to fix it or to replace the motor. I do have a shop that I really like and trust and they have built /installed two other motors for me in other cars and I just get in and drive away and everthing was perfect and they are fast and good. But, they are expensive. So, this scenario seems bad and it is very likely going to cost about $7k or more and take a lot more time.

The other option is that I can buy an ATK HP89 crate motor (blurprint and GM motors are out of stock with a 2+ month wait list from what I can seee) long block for about $4000 with shipping and core. This is a gen I motor with 390hp and without vortec heads and seems to be a match for my current car parts and headers. I really was not in the market for a new motor, but there is always that lingering idea of how nice it would be to have a new motor with no leaks and a lot more power. Part of me does not trust that they can do this work and the other part of me does not trust that the car will be right without a new motor.

I have done a lot of work to this car under the hood, tranny, rear end, suspension etc. A lot of upgrades done, but the motor is still a 225hp motor built for the highway and I would love to have somthing more fun. I also have a feeling that I will never have another opportunity to upgrade to a new 390hp motor for $4k. I just wish I had more trust in this shop.


I would appreciate any comments, thoughts or suggestions.

Here are a few photos.

What do you guys think of the bearing caps? These do not look that bad to me. They look dirty, but the shop says these are shot and that the motor should be replaced as this is a sign for bad things to come.

 

[Old Bear]

There is a BluePrint crate 396 SBC (yes small block) never installed out here.
Says he sold the Chevelle before installing engine.
I sent you a PM with contact info.

 

[sdcerreta]

Thanks. That sounds expensive. I am making some decisions today. I will check into this.

 

[sdcerreta]

So, I had the night to think about my options. I made one more trip to the shop to investigate further about how the dipstick was removed and if a piece was stuck int eh crankshaft then that woudl explain the vibration. The shop siad they got the dipstick out, put the motor back together and the vibration was still there. After they pulled the motor, there was a section of the dipstick in teh pan, but it was not trapped in the crankshaft and not responsible for the vibration.

So, I decided not to risk putting in a motor that I will have to have removed for the third time. I decided to by a performance crate base engine.

There are very few available and even less that do not have vortec heads. This is what I need to install the Edebrock Pro-Flo 4 XT fuel injection. I found two similar motors in stock at Summit Racing. I had good conversations with tech support at both ATK and BluePrint. In the end I decided on the BluePrint motor. They have a better reputation and the owner at my local NAPA said he had a terrible experience with ATK. The BluePrint also comes with a dyno sheet, which is pretty awesome.

I think I bought all the parts needed for the motor swap and with any luck I shoudl have the El Camino back within a week. That would be great.

This is the motor I selected. It is a nice upgrade from the 74 SBC 350 with 190HP (maybe 225 with my modz)

BluePrint Engines 355CI Crate Engine | Small Block GM Style | Longblock | Aluminum Heads | Roller Cam

BluePrint Engines 355 c.i. small block GM style crate engine - dressed longblock with carburetor. Includes 30 month / 50,000 warranty & BPE Dyno Promise. Part #: BP35513CTC1

blueprintengines.com

 

[sdcerreta]

I created a build request for my local shop for this project. It also serves as my record. Here are the specs and expectations.

BluePrint Crate Engine Upgrade BP35513CT1 Base – 355 CID, 390HP

Purchased April 2021 with 30 Month 50,000 mile warranty

1-308-236-1050​

Details:

• Rebuilt seasoned SBC 350 Gen II from 1986 – 2000 (Ref vehicle for parts is 1995 Camaro Z28)
• Balance is Internal / External - Internal front and External rear
• 4-bolt main with 1-piece rear main seal and passenger side dipstick
• Engine VIN# Engine Code #

Specs:

• HP & Torque: 390 HP / 410 FT LBS
• Compression Ratio: 10.0:1
• Aluminum BluePrint Cylinder Heads drilled for standard & vortec intake-H8002K
• 64cc chamber, 2.02" intake/1.60" exhaust valves, 195cc intake/75cc exhaust runners
• Hydraulic Roller Cam
• .495 Intake .503 Exhaust, 220 In. / 224 Exh. duration, @ .050 - 112 degree lobe separation
• Cast Steel Crankshaft, 3.480" Stroke, OEM type 5.700" connecting rods
• Hypereutectic Pistons
• 4.000" Bored .040" Over

Drilled and tapped for clutch linkage

• Timing: Initial = 10-16 deg, Total = 32-34deg at 3500 RPM, Firing Order = 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2
• Spark Plugs: NGK 7938 or NGK 6953, gap 0.35”
• 91+ Octane fuel, 5QT oil
• Break in oil 30W conventional, change at 500 mile, then switch to full synthetic at 6000 miles
• Service oil 5-20 full synthetic

Includes:

• Oil pan, timing cover, Melling HV oil pump, valve covers

Required Parts:

• Spark Plugs – Provided new NGK 6953
• Harmonic Balancer – Reuse unbalanced PRW 6.75” with timing tabs on old motor
• Flexplate – Provided balanced Summit Racing HD flexplate 6 bolt for 11.5 BCD Torque Converter
• Motor Mounts – Provided a new set of Summit Racing polyurethane motor and tranny mounts
• Fuel pump delete plate – Provided edelbrock
• Passenger side Dipstick – Provided new Lokar dipstick with downtube. Use RTV for install of downtube if loose. Mount top to header bolt.
• Valve Cover Breathers – Use PCV valve from old motor and use new breather and attach hose to Pro-Flo XT body or existing vacuum line
• Distributor – Reuse Edelbrock tuned for Pro-Flo 4 XT
• Intake / EFI – Reuse Edlebrock Pro-Flo 4 XT and CAI system
• Valve covers, Water pump, PS pump, alternator – Reuse from old motor with serpentine belt system

Engine Build Requests

• Everything should be available for this new motor installation. If something is not compatible, please call me.
• Most of the parts that will be going onto this motor from the old motor have less than 3000 miles.
• I was told that this engine will come with a rust prevention paint job. This paint will flake off with heat. Please paint this motor with high quality high temp black gloss paint. Please tape off and do not paint the cylinder heads.
• I hate chrome, please scrub the chrome timing chain cover with scotch-brite and paint it gloss black with the rest of the motor.
• Use all new gaskets to minimize any leaking with the brand new motor, valve cover gaskets, water pump gaskets, etc.
• We will leave the included oil pan, pump and timing cover in place to minimize leaks and save time.
• BluePrint does not require core return. You may dispose of my old engine block.
• Please return the Melling Oil pump, oil pan, valve covers and any other used parts or new take-off parts that are not integral to the block. I would like to keep these.
• Please return any instructions and the Dyno sheet that came with the motor.
• Install the new transmission mount that came with the motor mounts.
• Install the new finned flexplate cover
• I have many sensors in the old motor. Please reuse them. These are very specific to the Dakota Digital gauges and the Edelbrock equipment. They are not interchangeable. If something breaks or is not compatible with the new motor, call me. I do have a couple extras depending on which ones need replacement.
• I will provide you with the Lokar transmission tube adapter in case you need to add more tranny fluid (I forgot to give this to you. It will make the job easier)
• I will provide you with the computer for tuning the Eldebrock system. Please set to the Edelbrock specs over the recommended BlurPrint specs if there is a conflict. The motor may run a little rough until I can talk to tech support at Edelbrock for a recommended computer tune for this new motor.
• Please take lots of photos and be sure to write down the engine VIN and Code so I can look these up for future reference.

 

[Old Bear]

ETA and un Crating Party?

 

[sdcerreta]

The motor was supposed to arrive today. It was a no-show. Very bummed. There is no way to get the car back tomorrow now and I will be out of town for a week so now I have to wait another week. Hopefully they can get the job done and work out any kinks and that week. But I don't trust that they won't just sit on it until Thursday of next week. That stuff infuriates me.

 

[sdcerreta]

Fedex Freight reported that the motor was held up in Phoenix due to an "Emergency." When I checked first thing this am, the motor was in route to Flagstaff. I was very scared that the emergency was my motor falling off a truck.

The motor arrive today, but of course it was too late to do anything. I am out of town all week next week on a trip, so it will kill me having to wait another week. Hopefully the shop will get to work on this early next week as I requested so any setbacks can be overcome before I get back into town.

The good news is that I was able to snap a couple shots of the motor in the crate. The shop will be sending me some more photos as they uncrate the motor and prepare it for installation. I snagged the dyno sheet and warranty packet and headed home to share it with my wife. Of course she was not that impressed, but this motor has a dyno test of 401.5 HP at 5800rpm and a peak torque at 419.2 at 3800rpm right in the sweet spot of the rpm range.

The torque is over 400 from 3200rpm to 5000rpm. Again, this is the sweetspot for my style of driving and I am very excited.

BluePrint performs the dyno with headers so likely no gain or loss there, but I will be getting an HP increase of about 20HP with my Edelbrock ProFlo4 XT and cold air intake system. I estimate this motor at 420HP total. So exciting.

 

[sdcerreta]

I have been out of town on a trip, but got word today that after a few bugs the shop was able to get the motor installed, all leaks stopped (tranny pan leaking again) and break-in oil has been added. The car went out for a test drive and held 80 mph without any vibrations. Thank goodness that is gone.

I'm very excited to jump up from about 250HP dressed to about 420Hp dressed. I love the black engine paint and the alum heads.

I plan to pick up the car on Monday after work and I will try to get some after work easy miles on the car for the 500 mile break-in period. The new 3.73 rear gears will also complete the break-in period too and I pan to get all the fluids changed so I can start driving a little harder.

 

[Rj143]

I have to say that I read quite a bit about aftermarket EFI systems and it seems as if you’re not alone in your contempt for FI Tech customer support. I went with the Holley Sniper Stealth on my 454 just a few months ago. I’m glad I bought it through Summit because the first unit was defective out of the box. It would start, but the A/F would constantly read 35.6% and it ran very poorly. A quick ‘net search told me that 35.6% was like the magic number for a defective ECU. I called Summit and they sent me a new one right away. A quick swap and it has been trouble free ever since. I agree that the port systems are probably better than the throttle body systems, but a wanted a carburetor look. At a glance the Stealth looks just like a 4150.

This is why I stuck with a Holley carb. Engine Masters did an episode where they tested to two side by side, both got same mpg and the carb was easy out of the box with fewer issues. The carb also made the same power at WOT. It was an episode worth watching for sure.

 

[sdcerreta]

I got the car back yesterday. I was under the impression that everything was in great shape. When I picked up the car, they told me the motor has a "very little hum" at 3000rpm but everything else is great.

I drove the car and I would describe this little hum as the exact same vibration that I complained about before spending $4000 on a new motor that the shop said was the cause of the vibration.

Nonetheless, I fired the shop today and I have an appointment at another shop in town that I have had excellent service and relations with in the past. They are expensive, but they have installed two motors in two other cars for me and when I picked up those cars I just drove away and everything was perfect.

Of course, I wish I took the car to this shop first, but I can't fix that now. I just hope they can fix what another place broke and it does not cost me a fortune to do it.

I informed the first shop of my dissapointment in them today and my intentions to take the car elsewhere to repair the vibrations. I told them I would report back on what the real problem was and hoped they would have a discussion with me about making this right. They agreed to have that discussion. I remained as tactful as i could, but dammn, I am so sad about this.

To be honest, I never would have purchased a new motor if I was not seriously misguided here, but then I would not have a 401.5 Hp motor that feels and runs super strong. I have about 300 miles on the break-in period. So, moving on I hope I can get this vibration problem solved.

Here are a few photos.

 

[Old Bear]

Sorry to hear this.

Scott, did your driveshaft get modified (shortened) to support the addition of the gear vendors overdrive?
Could it be out of balance and causing a vibration?

 

[sdcerreta]

It was shortened and pro balanced. It drove fine after installing the GV. The vibration still occurs when the car is parked and reved up to 3k.

What is new now is that the vibration has very notable vibration at 3k and also surges. Its like I can feel somthing out of balance when spinning. The harmonic balancer and everything in the front appears to be straight with no wobble. I think it is the flexplate. I bought a new one but i am not sure they installed it. They said they did, but they also had another one from Napa and I feel like they did not believe me when I told them that this motor requires unbalanced harmonic balancer and a balanced flexplate. This is in the Blueprint instructions and it is known to be internal front / external rear balancing for Gen II SBCs. When I told the shop this, they were surpriosed and said that all SBCs are internally balanced. I have a feeling they did not use the flexplate i provided to them.

Is it possible that motor mounts can cause this problem. I asked the shop to change them, but they did not do it. They said the mounts are good and there ws no reason to replace them. I still wanted it done to eleminate the possibilities of that being the cause, but it was not done.

I'm thinking flexplate or motor mounts. Could it be anything else? Could the distributor being off by one gear cause this problem?

 

[Old Bear]

Vibration: Before the engine removal, when you did your last 1/4 mile tests, is it possible that one of the torque converter turbine blades bent or one broke on one end? This might change the pressure and maybe the amount of fluid (weight) in parts of the spinning convertor. This might cause vibrations. I don't know how commonly this occurs.

I think you have a TH350 or TH400, so I don't think you have a torque converter clutch, so this would not be TCC shuddering.
====
Might not be the best reference;
====
3) Vibrations and Shakiness
If you accelerate your vehicle past 40 mph and experience a lot of shakiness and vibrations in the cabin, then you probably have a bad torque converter. It will feel as if you’re driving on a gravel or bumpy road. You cannot let this problem carry on for too much longer because it could lead to even bigger problems with your transmission or engine.
5 Symptoms of a Bad Torque Converter in Your Car - Autocartimes.com

 

[Old Bear]

Possibly some thoughts and checking with video.
Torque converter vibration - YouTube

 

[Rj143]

Scott, I can say from experience that is is very difficult to narrow down vibrations concerning the engine. I had no vibration before the new engine, and when it was installed the engine had no vibration. I found that the first shop I had taken it to drive it rough and caused issues. The second shop damaged the driveshaft, an minor twist, due to hooking up the tires on dry pavement. The fourth shop had to rebuild the transmission three times, under warranty, to get it right. And now my current shop has helped by eliminating all but the engine vibration I originally took it in for. After replacing the flywheel and installing a rattler harmonic balancer, it still vibrates. His recommendation is that the rotating assembly need to be balanced complete. I have been told by blueprint to pull the motor out ams send it in for repair. Shaking my head as it does not leak, has great power and even solid mpg.

 

[Hat Trick]

Just throwing something out there. Can you unbolt the converter and run the motor?
Tom

 

[DJenkins]

After seeing everything you've done, I gotta say that it seems that you've got the chops to do your own wrenching. I'd like to encourage you to stop paying other folks and do it yourself. We are here to help!