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1981 Elcamino 229 v6 timing question

269 Views 10 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  chris32
I am working on my dads' elcamino. It is a 1981 base model with the vin code k, he has taken it to several mechanics with no luck in getting the thing running decent. I took the task upon my self to get this thing going for him. Right away i noticed several things missing that would support the computer controlled carb. The check engine light is also not working, this is not the original motor, most of the vacuum hoses are missing or not hooked up correctly. Long story short, i purchased a non computer controlled carb and currently have it installed and running. My question is the original distributor is a HEI with vacuum advance that has a single wire that connects to the ecm. I understand the next generation has the 4 wire plug but this one does not. What should the base timing be set at and does the advance need to go thru the thermal vacuum port or straight to manifold pressure? According to the Haynes manual timing should be 6* BTDC for the 81 but I'm not sure if the ecm actually controlled the timing or just regulated the carb. That number jumps to 12* for the 1980. any suggestions?
Sean
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Two things.
First, fix the vacuum situation, there's nothing you can do to get the motor running right, if there's a vacuum leak.
Second, throw out the books, they won't apply. It's all about the motor, not the car. Since it's not an original motor, there's no assumption on it being the original dizzy. A CCC dizzy is run from the ecm, not vacuum advance.

The 1980 Chevy 229 used a mechanical dualjet, vacuum dizzy, the 81-84 229 was CCC, and differed from the Buick 231 basically by where the dizzy is placed (rear for Chevy, front for Buick) but both were optioned back then, the Buick being a California setup.

So what you have is a poorly slapped together mix of parts. Either go all out CCC or scrap it totally in favor of vacuum.

Vacuum advance will be manifold vacuum, not ported. As far as timing, that's impossible to say unless you can find the engine date code stamp, as you say it can change from year to year, but basically you'll set timing according to manifold vacuum, without the dizzy attached, in the 15-20 range at 500-700rpm. You might adjust that later if getting knock.

Without being able to verify the timing mark location, those can also change, I'd also suggest actually physically/manually verifying TDC beforehand via the piston itself and making sure that when you set the timing by light, it's accurate. Some timing pegs were at 12 o'clock on the timing cover, some were at closer to 1:30-2:00 o'clock and on the block, which can throw off timing by 20+°.
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Two things.
First, fix the vacuum situation, there's nothing you can do to get the motor running right, if there's a vacuum leak.
Second, throw out the books, they won't apply. It's all about the motor, not the car. Since it's not an original motor, there's no assumption on it being the original dizzy. A CCC dizzy is run from the ecm, not vacuum advance.

The 1980 Chevy 229 used a mechanical dualjet, vacuum dizzy, the 81-84 229 was CCC, and differed from the Buick 231 basically by where the dizzy is placed (rear for Chevy, front for Buick) but both were optioned back then, the Buick being a California setup.

So what you have is a poorly slapped together mix of parts. Either go all out CCC or scrap it totally in favor of vacuum.

Vacuum advance will be manifold vacuum, not ported. As far as timing, that's impossible to say unless you can find the engine date code stamp, as you say it can change from year to year, but basically you'll set timing according to manifold vacuum, without the dizzy attached, in the 15-20 range at 500-700rpm. You might adjust that later if getting knock.

Without being able to verify the timing mark location, those can also change, I'd also suggest actually physically/manually verifying TDC beforehand via the piston itself and making sure that when you set the timing by light, it's accurate. Some timing pegs were at 12 o'clock on the timing cover, some were at closer to 1:30-2:00 o'clock and on the block, which can throw off timing by 20+°.
Thanks for your reply. The CCC wirning harness is there and i still have the carb i removed. The funny thing is when you go to the parts house and look at distributors, the ones for the 1981 model with the vin code K do not have the 4 wires. just one wire coming out of the distributor thru the back side of the cap.
Font Line Parallel Screenshot Gun barrel
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Thanks for your reply. The CCC wirning harness is there and i still have the carb i removed. The funny thing is when you go to the parts house and look at distributors, the ones for the 1981 model with the vin code K do not have the 4 wires. just one wire coming out of the distributor thru the back side of the cap.
View attachment 155843
That single wire from your distributor went to an Electronic Module Retard (EMR) switch that mounted on the left front of the intake manifold. The distributor in the 1981 229 V6 had a five pin, rather than four pin, ignition module, and the EMR would at times retard the ignition timing (10 degrees I believe) based on engine vacuum, through the fifth pin on the ignition module.

In 1981, the Computer Command Control 229 V6 had a computer controlled carb, but the distributor had vacuum advance and mechanical weights/centrifugal advance. It was a one year only thing because in 1982, the distributor went to computer control

I would try unplugging that single wire coming off the backside of the distributor, and leave it unplugged. If it’s grounding somewhere it will retard the timing. Try setting your initial timing at 18 degrees btdc, as long as you have a working EGR valve. If no EGR valve, 18 may be too high. If you hear pinging while driving, back the timing off a couple degrees at a time until the pinging stops. And set the timing with the vacuum advance hose unhooked and plugged. After setting initial timing, connect the vacuum advance directly to manifold vacuum and bypass the thermal vacuum switch and delay valve.

My ‘81 229 is set up this way and it really runs a lot better than it did set at the stock 6 degrees. The stock setup had it so retarded and choked down for lower emissions that it ran crappy and had no guts at all. I also put a little sheet metal limiter plate on the vacuum advance inside the distributor to limit vacuum advance to about 12 degrees, rather than the stock 20 degrees, and put lighter centrifugal advance springs (Mr. Gasket gold ones I think) in the distributor to let the mechanical advance come in quicker.

Theres no mistaking my 229 for a 350, but it really woke the little engine up and it at least runs well enough now that it’s fun to drive.
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That single wire from your distributor went to an Electronic Module Retard (EMR) switch that mounted on the left front of the intake manifold. The distributor in the 1981 229 V6 had a five pin, rather than four pin, ignition module, and the EMR would at times retard the ignition timing (10 degrees I believe) based on engine vacuum, through the fifth pin on the ignition module.

In 1981, the Computer Command Control 229 V6 had a computer controlled carb, but the distributor had vacuum advance and mechanical weights/centrifugal advance. It was a one year only thing because in 1982, the distributor went to computer control

I would try unplugging that single wire coming off the backside of the distributor, and leave it unplugged. If it’s grounding somewhere it will retard the timing. Try setting your initial timing at 18 degrees btdc, as long as you have a working EGR valve. If no EGR valve, 18 may be too high. If you hear pinging while driving, back the timing off a couple degrees at a time until the pinging stops. And set the timing with the vacuum advance hose unhooked and plugged. After setting initial timing, connect the vacuum advance directly to manifold vacuum and bypass the thermal vacuum switch and delay valve.

My ‘81 229 is set up this way and it really runs a lot better than it did set at the stock 6 degrees. The stock setup had it so retarded and choked down for lower emissions that it ran crappy and had no guts at all. I also put a little sheet metal limiter plate on the vacuum advance inside the distributor to limit vacuum advance to about 12 degrees, rather than the stock 20 degrees, and put lighter centrifugal advance springs (Mr. Gasket gold ones I think) in the distributor to let the mechanical advance come in quicker.

Theres no mistaking my 229 for a 350, but it really woke the little engine up and it at least runs well enough now that it’s fun to drive.
Thank you! I will give this a try and see what happens. Can you tell me a little more on the sheet metal limiter plate?
3
Thank you! I will give this a try and see what happens. Can you tell me a little more on the sheet metal limiter plate?
I didn’t take a picture of mine but it looks like this pic from the internet.
Tool Auto part Bicycle part Wood Nickel

It’s held in place by the end screw that holds the vacuum advance in the distributor. I guessed as to how long the slot needed to be in the homemade plate and then once installed, checked it with a timing light. I wanted to limit the travel of that rod by almost half. These pics better show how the plate mounts, though I did the small plate like in the first pic rather than the larger one.
Everyday carry Composite material Wood Font Fashion accessory

Tool Auto part Nickel Metal Pneumatic tool
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Two things.
First, fix the vacuum situation, there's nothing you can do to get the motor running right, if there's a vacuum leak.
Second, throw out the books, they won't apply. It's all about the motor, not the car. Since it's not an original motor, there's no assumption on it being the original dizzy. A CCC dizzy is run from the ecm, not vacuum advance.

The 1980 Chevy 229 used a mechanical dualjet, vacuum dizzy, the 81-84 229 was CCC, and differed from the Buick 231 basically by where the dizzy is placed (rear for Chevy, front for Buick) but both were optioned back then, the Buick being a California setup.

So what you have is a poorly slapped together mix of parts. Either go all out CCC or scrap it totally in favor of vacuum.

Vacuum advance will be manifold vacuum, not ported. As far as timing, that's impossible to say unless you can find the engine date code stamp, as you say it can change from year to year, but basically you'll set timing according to manifold vacuum, without the dizzy attached, in the 15-20 range at 500-700rpm. You might adjust that later if getting knock.

Without being able to verify the timing mark location, those can also change, I'd also suggest actually physically/manually verifying TDC beforehand via the piston itself and making sure that when you set the timing by light, it's accurate. Some timing pegs were at 12 o'clock on the timing cover, some were at closer to 1:30-2:00 o'clock and on the block, which can throw off timing by 20+°.
Thank you! I will give this a try and see what happens. Can you tell me a little more on the sheet metal limiter plate?
If I wanted to use the CCC system, what components would be needed for the system to function properly? Currently I know the carburetor, distributor, temp sensor and O2 sensor are there but I do not see the MAP sensor one the wheel well and I'm not sure about the BARO. Also the AIR system has been removed as well as the EGR. I still have the EGR.
At this point, you'd spend too much time and money for no real gains. The CCC was setup to be using all the smog equipment, that includes stuff like the map and egr, so it could get comprehensive data to apply to the charts. It'll run with just the map, egr, O² and carb, but if the carb, choke and timing is well setup without using the CCC, you end up with a bunch of less parts to kick the check engine light, is definitely easier to tune and far more customizable.
A 1981 used a computer controlled carb and distributer and the distributer had a 4 wire connector that went back to the computer. From your post, your distributer in the car currently has a vacuum advance meaning its a non-computer distributer and the singe wire is a power wire back to the ignition switch. You should be fine with 6-12 degrees advance with the vacuum advance disconnected and non-computer carb assuming no pinging with the EGR and air pump discoed. The vacuum advance should have ported vacuum - meaning only vacuum off idle and above.
It runs ok now except at an idle with the ac on it struggles a bit at a stop in gear. There is no throttle kick up to compensate for the additional load of the AC. My dad is 83 and wont drive far in it but i want to make it as smooth and dependable as possible. i have just about all the components and the carb just needs rebuilt. The only part I'm having difficulty finding is the mixture control solenoid. the carb currently has one in it but I'm not sure how to test it. I am pretty handy and have done tons of work on my LS motors and outboards. This technology is just too old for me to know about as I was a child lol.
You can add an A/C idle solenoid easily enough. The power lead can come off the wire to the accumulator or compressor wire so when it has power so would the A/C solenoid. You can find the A/C solenoid used or new. Nice that you can get the Camino running for your dad, I am sure he appreciates it.
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